Nathan_Jr

Oh, I don't feel bad at all. And he's copping out about God speaking audibly in the carnal universe to a carnal, natural, five senses old man who had lost all faith and believing. God can only community with what he his, spirit, except when he's speaking audibly so that your five senses ears can hear him.

Seriously, Waysider, your recall of all this never ceases to amaze me.

I'm perfectly calm. Just say so. Just say you need to think about it. I would that you gave my dead serious questions some thought and answer them directly with well-composed, intelligent sentences, than to attack, deflect and cop out.

Always with the cop outs and deflections. I'm talking about MY questions. My dead serious, relevant questions that go to the heart of the matter. It's very telling that you always avoid my questions and comments. I'll let anyone reading decide for themselves what it's telling of. My questions and comments must make you uncomfortable. Perhaps, they should.

Zero. You haven't answered any of my questions today.

Good point... brainstorming... Maybe the audible voice victor heard in 1942 was a devil spirit counterfeiting as God.

Let's say it took the rest of the week. If spirit can only talk to spirit, what was the audible voice victor heard with his five senses, old man ears?

We're talking about the limits of God's communication, right? Not snow.

I should have known you'd cop out in this way. You won't answer most of my questions. You're the only one. I suspect it's because you can't, but I don't know, because you won't. It took you forever to answer my question about what the word is. And you've left dozens more unanswered. Victor hated serious questions, too. HATED them. I suspect it's because his cup runneth over with fear. I'm unafraid to inquire. I'm unafraid of the truth. I'm unafraid to be wrong. My questions are serious. Dead serious.

Yep.

Either God didn’t REALLY speak audibly to victor’s natural ears, or victor didn’t REALLY hear from God and just made the whole thing up.

Always speaking the truth is limited? It's less than speaking both truth AND lies? This is a self imposed limit? God free will chooses to limit himself to always speak true? He could lie if he REALLY wanted to? HOWEVER, God has the self discipline to resist lying? (Well, thank God for that!) We will always talk past each other until I understand your answer to the following: What is your definition of God? What do you mean when you say God? What or who is God?

This is my favorite story of Jesus as a boy. It's from The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which dates to the 2nd century. Our earliest manuscripts of this apocrypha are from the 5th century. This Gospel should NOT be confused with the sayings Gospel of Thomas, which many scholars today believe is earlier than Mark, even earlier than Paul - currently, I'm convinced of their position. For me, the following story is as believable as the story of casting devils into pigs, but it's so much more satisfying, magical, full of wonder... and kind of funny. (Later in the Gospel, Jesus straightens that kid out.) We just don't know. But we can imagine. It's a story that was told. That's REALLY all that it is. And it's wonderful! ====================== 1. I Thomas, an Israelite, write you this account, that all the brethren from among the heathen may know the miracles of our Lord Jesus Christ in His infancy, which He did after His birth in our country. The beginning of it is as follows:- 2. This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when He did these things. And there were also many other children playing with Him. And a certain Jew, seeing what Jesus was doing, playing on the Sabbath, went off immediately, and said to his father Joseph: Behold, thy son is at the stream, and has taken clay, and made of it twelve birds, and has profaned the Sabbath. And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing. 3. And the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a willow branch, and let out the waters which Jesus bad collected. And Jesus, seeing what was done, was angry, and said to him: O wicked, impious, and foolish! what harm did the pools and the waters do to thee? Behold, even now thou shalt be dried up like a tree, and thou shalt not bring forth either leaves, or root, or fruit. And straightway that boy was quite dried up. And Jesus departed, and went to Joseph's house. But the parents of the boy that had been dried up took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and reproached him because, said they, thou hast such a child doing such things.

My new favorite cop out is REALLY. When the gloves just won't fit, you've got to REALLY make them fit. Spirit can't REALLY.... You are REALLY born again... God can't REALLY... Well, maybe my REAL favorite cop outs are all the asserted opinionated claims of what God can or cannot REALLY do. Who or what is this little god who seems so powerless and ineffectual against the adversary? Seriously, WITAF does victor mean when he says "god."

Well, this just explains everything. All of it Not more. Not less. EVERYTHING Brilliant! If only victor could have heard this in the original. ”If you push something hard enough, it WILL fall over.” - Lifeline

One thing I learned from imitating victor and standing on his shoulders is one can MAKE the Bible say say anything at all with enough fudging and imagination, because this is how (H-O-W) he did it. Victor showed me one can BELEEEEVE the Bible to say what one wants it to say. It will say what vic says, if one BELEEEVES it will. Lo shonta koala!

Yep. I remember this, too - and I have CRS. One of hundreds of asserted natural man opinions victor put forth ABOUT scripture that had no basis IN scripture. victor couldn’t exegete his way through a wet 3x5 card to get to a Quaaluded teenage girl on the other side. He just never learned how (H-O-W) to accurately and honestly handle the text. If only he could have believed big enough… Bless his little, black heart.

Here's Dr. Michael Heiser getting geeky with the granules of the text, as he does. The first four minutes lay out the culty-cult bullshonta of serpent seed. If you want to skip the creepy cringe, Heiser swoops in at the 4:00 mark.

Limestone carvings seem to be more resilient than writings on papyri. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish_tablet

I wonder if they were taught to write the new names on 3x5 cards so they might remember.

We have writings of the ancient Sumerians that have been dated to around 3500 BC.

Yep. All that flesh and blood eating would have been cray cray for the Jews at that time to hear.

John the Baptist was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, as was Peter and Jesus’ brother, James. What can we know about them? Turns out, more than ol’ victor was apt to teach. Paul claimed to be a Jew. He also said he could be anything to anyone in order to persuade them to HIS gospel. Luke/Acts narrates from one POV. It’s the only POV, if you let it be. I, too, am interested in what the Jews knew, particularly the sects of Messianic Judaism linked to those at Qumran. Are you familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls? Are you familiar with the Gospel of Thomas? I don’t presume to have any answers. The endeavor of free inquiry itself is often satisfying enough, even if it gives rise to more questions, which inevitably it will.

I want to thank you, again, WordWolf, for the link VP and Me. It's been a challenging week, and just a cursory reading of this drivel has me laughing hysterically. Gold. Pure gold.