Nathan_Jr

Rely NOT on your own consideration. Let someone else with a bracelet do the considering for you. Seek to BELEEEVE, not to find out, not to understand, not to know, not to see.

Thanks, WW, for reposting this. Thanks, Raf, for your honest reflection. I finally and forever stopped going to fellowship because of this very issue of integrity and that it does, indeed, matter. I read somewhere in this forum about an obscure, out of print E.W. Bullinger book called The Giver And His Gifts (It was also published with an alternate title, I think?) A few weeks later at fellowship, the commander and his wife, both Corps, held forth for an embarrassingly long time about the great sacrifices victor paul wierwille made to "research the word." Victor worked 18 hours a day for years to find every use of "Holy Spirit" in the Bible, they said. No one else ever had or ever would do this, they said. We should be so humbly grateful to victor, they said. He did all the work so we wouldn't have to, they said. Isn't that wonderful, they said. The accurate truth, I discovered, was victor copied the The Giver And His Gifts for all the uses of "Holy Spirit" for the appendix of RTHST. Why hide this? What's wrong with saying victor found this book from Bullinger and copied it so we wouldn't have to? Why make such a deliberate, painstaking effort to gushingly misattribute credit to victor for this? Why hide? Why deceive? That was it for me. I had endured the bullshonta to keep the peace, but the deliberate deception I couldn't abide. If it wasn't deliberate deception on the fellowship commander's part (doubtful), then it was willful ignorance on his part, which is self deception -- I couldn't abide that, either. A week later, the FC texted me for something unrelated. I replied with, "Are you familiar with The Giver and His Gifts by EW Bullinger?" FC: Yes NATE: Is that the source for RTHSPT? FC: Somewhat NATE: I mean the appendix. FC: Dr. put together various writings. Bullinger was a biggie. But not EVERTHING Bullinger wrote was accurate. NATE: I get it. Bullinger did the research, the work. But it seems Bullinger was a trinitarian. Everything was accurate, except that, I guess. FC: I am concerned with rightly dividing the Word of truth. When we do, we get rewarded. Deflect, distract, derail, deny. Red herrings are dirty birds. That's where the conversation ended. I was done with the deception, but he wasn't.

A music coordinator said he was the seventh THE man of god. Must be something to it if a music coordinator said it Plus, Vic wore a silver bracelet engraved with “The man of god.” The bracelet says it, I believe it, that settles it. Did you ever see the movie The Omen?

Yep. Yep. And yep. The typical deflective apologia I encountered when raising the issue of plagiarism (dishonesty, a lie) was, “If it’s true, what does it matter.” This, it seems to me, is weirdly equivalent to the bathing baby, or at least a limping step towards it. What does it matter? It literally matters EVERYTHING. That’s what. The plagiarism is bad enough, but the plagiarized material is inaccurate or untrue, making it all so… ridiculous. Why does the bathwater need throwing out? Because it’s filthy. Understood. We can all agree. Why is the bathwater filthy? Oh, I don’t know… could it have anything to do with the rotting corpse of a baby floating in it? It’s just ridiculous to keep a cadaver of a baby around. It’s absurd. It’s gross.

It is written in an undiscovered manuscript. I beleeve one day that manuscript will be found, but not in my lifetime.

Well done, WW. Thank you.

New perspectives? Kinda… The mother’s negative believing didn’t kill that little boy, God’s budget cuts did. Yeah. That’s new.

It’s hard to pick a favorite point in your post, Mr. Bone, but this one easily makes my top two.

Oh, Irony, my friend! I seeeeee yooouuuu…

Mmmmmph

The history has been and is being written right here in these threads.

"as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please" - VPW At this time, I have no reason to doubt that victor said this. Partly because several very trustworthy, honest, sane posters confirm it, and partly because it just fits like a... well, you know. But I would be curious to know when victor put forth this ethic. It seems like it might be a later, enriched, crawfished version of the 1973 ethic of "Do as you full well please - it's only a problem if you beleeeve it is." "Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You understand what I just asked? VPW: I sure did and I gave you the proper answer. LCM: I asked, How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: Alright, Kurt? Kurt: In verse 15.....

Easily one of the most intellectually and spiritually dishonest phrases ever uttered by a human being.

Only victor is allowed whimsical, arbitrary, nonsensical interpretations, but that’s it! No one else! Rely not on your own understanding. Rely only on victor’s. Are you a doctor? Didn't think so. Shut up and absorb. Let the intellectual and spiritual anesthesia wash over you like a warm bath. (Pay no attention to the floating dead baby.)

I finally began reading this article. It has been a slow start because I suspect the writer is deeply biased. But I am reading it slowly. It's all very slow and gentle. A gentle reading. I just finished reading the word "run." If only I had more time. If only the flurry of posts... well, if they would just stop! It's hard to keep up. Slowly. A gentle keeping up. Like I said, I have made great, if slow, progress in my gentle reading. All I have to say thus far is Yikes! So biased! I wish the article could have been written from an unvarnished perspective. Oh well. Until that day, I'll keep this article in a folder. One question: How are we suppose to run if we are to stand above all. It seems like a contradiction, albeit a gentle one. If you're standing, you can't very well run. And if you're running, you've obviously stopped standing, even if the running is very, very, very slow.

Why can't this be said enough: That this wicked "ministry" needed a monograph written to address the issue of adultery, and that the paper caused such a sh¡t storm, should tell anyone all they need to know about the FOUNDATION of this "ministry." Didn't victor paul wierwille need to loosen up LCM before putting oil on his head? ----- I grew up in a home that some might call church lady-like. Sex was an unspoken issue. Not condemned, just repressed. My mother is a devout Christian, and she raised two boys rightly. I explored sex and drugs with gleeful, unashamed fervor after I left home. I've NEVER been accused of being prude or pious. I have never been afraid of choking on the bone so that I might extract all the marrow. Whether it is the Sunday school of my youth or just my empathic character, it doesn't really matter. I could never allow anyone to "teach" me that hurting another was ok because it's all about beleeef and rewards anyway, not demerits. I'm of generation X. Now, I appreciate the sexual revolution (indeed, all the revolutions) of the 1960s and 70s, but... hippy shmippy... So what! It's no excuse for the hurt caused by this "ministry." And it all goes back to that charlatan victor paul wierwille. All. Of. It.

I think you might be right. Can we really know with certainty the original intent? Sometimes, maybe. Always, probably not. What if we can never know. Will we be ok?

The numinous. Neither religion nor reason is required to experience the numinous. ———— Raf, I understand your point. And I agree. Expanding of the medical metaphor, beleeef is the everyday salve for the discomfort of being alive. Instead of finding out, understanding, knowing or not knowing, examining ourselves honestly, looking, seeing what is actually going on, all we have to do is clutch and cling to beleeef, and voila! the discomfort is remedied.

Mmmmph If victor's "ministry" had been built on rock instead of sand... If he hadn't so smugly defecated in the mouth of God, this adolescent story never would have happened. Even though JS was deeply confused on the crucified, the denials, the crowing cocks, Romans, SIT, etc., I have no reason to disbelieve his account. But it sounds like he and all the others were teenagers! So immature. Lord of the flies kinds of shonta! If victor had been "spiritually mature" perhaps the rickety house he built would have been inhabited by adults. So sad, it's funny. Absurd. Ridiculous. Vomitous. I'm so sorry for all who got caught up (flocked) in this stupid "ministry." 1970s, 80s, 90s... doesn't matter which era. This whole thing is so stupid.

"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You understand what I just asked? VPW: I sure did and I gave you the proper answer. LCM: I asked, How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: Alright, Kurt? Kurt: In verse 15..... A few years later, VPW put oil on LCM's head. OIL!! (O-I-L) ---------------- I don't need an essay, a reverend, a doctor, a Bible, a Quran, a hippie, a socio-cultural aesthetic/moral sensibility, or a "class" to tell me that f*cking my friend's wife will hurt my friend and that raping my friend's wife will hurt my friend's wife. And it matters not in which era I live.

I’m not confused about the impact the paper had on this faux ministry. I’m aware of the history. That it had such an impact is all one really needs to know about the founder and foundation upon which such a “ministry” was schemed.

Again, why would poor, poor vic ask for “research” to be done on a topic that even nonbelievers find unambiguous? Why are so many so easily impressed with schoenheit’s paper? What does it say about the foundation of a “ministry” that its inventor would charge his sycophants with such an endeavor?

Efforts to confirm victor’s flimsy opinions and conclusions do not constitute research in 1955, 1965, 1975 or 1985. Real research never begins with a conclusion. Never. Schoenheit. Why is his name so frequently invoked? He still teaches the obvious stupidity of four crucified. Not impressed. How many sermons, essays and theological monographs have been written on adultery and fornication over the last 2000 years? Innumerable. That vic requested “research” on the topic speaks to his deception and stupidity. Who could possibly require further “research” in order to get straight on this topic?

It's all made up. An invention of imagination. Like four crucified, twice times thrice, crowing cocks, and.... snow.... lots of snow.... It's never ceases to amaze me what people will beleeeve.