Nathan_Jr

Not only does scripture interpret itself, it writes itself and reads itself. Similarly, poetry interprets itself, writes itself and reads itself. Or, art interprets itself, paints itself, views itself. See? Isn't that just wonderful!! Bless your little hearts. I wish you could read it in the original.

I didn't have a problem focusing on the good until I "took the class." So much pretense. So many presumptions. So much negativity and evil was preached. I had never heard such effort to divide the Body of Christ, to separate friendships and families. I had never heard of a so-called MOG spend so much energy religiously arguing against other shades of diverse religious doctrine - the truth needs no defense, but, boy, was vic always on the defensive. Yet, he was the one on the attack! I remember wondering: With whom are you arguing?!?! Someone, maybe Babe Ruth, said: Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Well, if the baby is a deceased corpse, it's going out with the bath water, and the entire tub will be filled with bleach to disinfect. I'm eternally grateful for excellent teachers throughout my life. So grateful. I know what it looks like. Vic ain't it. He's one of the worst teachers and PFAL is one of the worst "classes" I've ever encountered. I know not all are as blessed as I, and for some victor seems impressive. This astonishes and saddens me. But I'm not on any mission to convert followers to sycophants. I work every day to forgive him, even though he doesn't deserve it. That's grace. I hope one day he can thank me for enduring the dozens of hours I spent in "the class." And I hope one day he can read it in the original. Bless his little heart.

Thanks. There are so many published and private Bible translations. I wouldn't ever say one is better than another. They are different. We have preferences. We study. There are methods for study, methods for translation, hermeneutics. All rooted in ancient and contemporary schools of thought and theory on textual translation and interpretation. Horace and Cicero may have been the first to codify a binary translation theory: Word for Word and Sense for Sense. Today the field is more nuanced, complex. So, is it literal OR is it according to usage? I remember reading and hearing vp's literal according to usage and they sounded like paraphrase, freer and more expansive and carnally opinionated than any amplified Bible - neither word for word nor sense for sense, according to the original. (I do wish vic could have read it in the original... bless his heart.) I'm fine with anyone's private interpretation (private inspiration is essential), but the phrase literal according to usage sounds contrived, manipulative. Is it designed to impress? To obscure? As a dilettante would? The phrase sounds so technical, but the actual translation is free form paraphrase full of the very religion vp disparaged. And it was "taught" to me as the most accurate translation ever written. Maybe I've been reading too much Harry Frankfurt lately. Im calling bull$hit.

What does the phase "literal according to usage" mean? VP's text reads like a free translation - nothing literal or according to usage about it. I was usually condemned as spiritually immature for asking such questions or else provided a bull$hit word salad for an answer. It seems to me literal and according to usage are mutually exclusive terms in the work of a translator.

Twinky, this is book is EXCELLENT!! It's occupied space on my desk for years - right next to Strunk and White.

So much Frankfurtian bull$hit, so much word salad. The advanced class was truly advanced bull$hit and gourmet word salad. PFAL and vp's teachings were designed to persuade without regard for truth (BS) by systematically grinding down and exhausting to delirium the natural and spiritual sensibilities (word salad). The PFALT trailer made me vomit.

This!! This deceptive tactic is used ALL THE TIME for "correction" and "reproof" while "teaching." It's a cunningly subtle and sinister form of gaslighting. Just because victor states explicitly or implicitly that any or everything he says is necessarily god-breathed doesn't make it true. What vic says is demonstrably not true, even if he himself claims it to be true. It's not true even if someone believes it. WW, for the record I don't think I said I agreed with Mike. And I never claimed to be an expert. Your insightful posts have been so helpful over the years. Thank you. GSC is immeasurably important, including the foil of Mike's voice. Finding truth sometimes requires contrasting BS.

Good for you. Your happiness, power, results and rewards are not tied to evangelizing victor's private, spirituality immature interpretations. But, hey, believe whatever you want. Be about it, don't talk about it, and don't try so hard to convert others - no rewards whatsoever in that. Free advice. Take it or leave it. God revealed to me many times (the first two times established it) that He didn't teach Vic and that PFAL is NOT God-breathed and that I will get more rewards for forgiving Vic than for following him. So I work to have pity and forgiveness for this little charlatan. There's a lot of good in Saul's letters, but he wasn't accurate about everything, either. And vic mishandled LOTS of it. Unlearn what you've learned, endeavor honest research and find out for yourself. The dispensational treatment of the Bible is novel and neat-o and even appears advanced to the immature hungering and thirsting after Truth, but, alas, it's mere religious, man-made private interpretation. It's a distraction, a sleight of hand. Belief has no place where Truth is concerned. The words are NOT the Word.

Babe Ruth wasn't accurate about EVERYTHING.

If they were right, then you's lose the hubris you detected. Huh?

I would not say expert. I used to study language seriously, academically, a long time ago. It's an interest of mine. I've probably forgotten more than most know.

I remember well this passage from page 83. With a open heart and mind I used to open vic's books at random, believing for my spiritual suspicions to be proven wrong. This quote and the one about roosters behaving differently during "Bible times" stands out. (JCOPS/JCOP?) It means what it says: Not ALL of what vic writes is God-breathed, but MOST of it is. (Surgical grammatical analysis is not required to explicate anything written by vic.) I remember gasping at the hubris of his asserted claim. What a cunning thing to write, to say. So subtle in its nuanced deception, obfuscation. He who claims to have the Truth surely doesn't. Thank God for GSC. That includes you, too, Mike. I mean it.

According to victor and his sycophants, the law of believing works for saint or sinner, positively or negatively, rightly or wrongly, unless devil spirits override the believing? I was "taught" that victor was martyred for his recording PFAL. For this I should be extra-thankful to him. What martyred him? His lack of believing? His wrong believing? His negative, fearful believing (surely not TMOG!) Or was was it the fault of devil spirits?

I Maybe belonging to the human race: friends, family AND scoundrels. That's why I defined my use of belonging for this context. The culty cult ethical cult thread. But If one's relationship is based on Truth/Love, to whom does one belong? Who is the possessor? Who is the possessed? In my experience true relationship in Love is not a function of desire for pleasure, nor of possession, nor of co-dependence. Sure, we feel good when we are loved by our friends and family. But is this a fulfillment of desire? Or is it something greater and true, defying description, beyond Koine Greek. I've been reading these threads for a couple years. There are many very bright, courageous, thoughtful, strong voices here. Everyone here got caught. I got caught, too. (A few are still caught.) Real suffering and destruction ensued, as did triumphant redemption. Inquiry into motivations and endeavoring to examine the self can be liberating. Perhaps I'm hyper vigilant in guarding against repeating the suffering caused by joining a cult, ethical or culty. What's the difference?

Rocky, mention of that book is reminding me... I'm not convinced that the desire to belong to anything is biological or natural or inherent. When I say belong I mean cling, clutch, bond, co-dependently in order to feel secure, to feel pleasure. Why are we not fulfilled? What is not fulfilled? The identity I've constructed for myself? I know (no believing required) that in my happiest, most powerful, effective and free days, I belonged to nothing and everything at the same time. I felt zero compulsion to accept or reject admission into any group. Yet, my life was full of loving, friendly people, and scoundrels, too! And I neither wanted nor needed anything at all. Not even red drapes. I'm embarrassed to even attempt to articulate this because words are insufficient. (The words are NOT the Word... for those who have ears of that type.) At some point we become conditioned, indoctrinated, taught that we are missing something, that we have a void only a lover or money or drugs or dogmatic doctrine can fill. Us vs. them is a condition subtlety cultivated, not a natural state, definitely not an enlightened state, nor a primordial state. That which is eternal belongs to no group. I'm trying to remember how I glimpsed this - how I found out. And I assure you, that's all it is. A glimpse. I cannot give it to you because I don't have it. It is nothing to be possessed.

It's probably time for me to read Peck again. It must be. I first read that book twenty-four years ago. It was part of a massive revolution in my life at that time. The best years of my life followed. "Life is difficult." Isn't that the opening sentence of The Road Less Traveled?

Yeah. Pleasure is probably at the root of much suffering. Joining a destructive group to fill a dopamine void, what irony! i know I stayed with my NPD ex wife too long partly because of the dangling carrot of pleasure. She was my entree to TWI. I had to wake up to this fact myself, that my entire life was systematically destroyed partly because of my desire for what feels good. So, why do we feel so unfulfilled that we need fulfillment from another? I'm only trying to be vigilantly aware of myself, my desires, shortcomings, so that I don't fall into these traps again. My life was destroyed by people claiming to have the answers that never sought. (Why can't evangelists just be happy? Why must they insist on converting another?!) I've discovered that the power and insight and depth of awareness is in contemplating the questions, not clinging to a answer. Bolshevik, you've made some powerfully insightful, if sometimes confusing and cryptic, posts on narcissism in the past that I've found very helpful. Thank you.

Yes. Our species naturally seeks to help one another, to protect one another, to raise each other's children. Naturally, from the very beginning 100,000+ years ago. It takes a village... But, today, this desire to be part of a separate group, in order to validate ourselves, to arrogantly separate ourselves with MOG-made distinctions, to M&A the very village that raised us, is this biological/natural?

Indeed, it is. Honest self examination is difficult. Why are we so insecure that we need validation? Who will perform the validation? The MOG? If we go outside of ourselves to validate ourselves, when does it end? When the guru says so? And who will validate the guru? I don't know the answers, but I find the contemplation of these questions can teach us more than any self-proclaimed teacher.

I guess I missed this before I posted. Why do we feel a need to belong to anything, any group, at all? Maybe the answer is in the question. Can we look honestly at ourselves to find out?

Can anyone expand on what an ethical cult actually is? Or what Wheal means by this phasing? Ethical cult seems oxymoronic to me. I've watched the video several times, but it seems a mere superficial introduction to the concept, possibly a baited hook enticing one to BITE. His Flow Genome Project site seems to me to be part of the zeitgeist of search for meaning and culture collapse. Haven't read either of his books and I don't think "ethical cult" was ever mentioned on the Darkhorse podcast. Wheal may be onto something. But I don't know yet. His two books have been successful and he seems to be selling plenty of training classes.

Peirce is not pleasurable to read because he writes like the academic scientist he was 120 years ago. "Fixation of Belief" is his treatment of how and why we come to believe. I stumbled across it in my quest to find out why we believe anything at all. This quest became exceedingly urgent in the wake of "taking the class," domestic political fever, and the global pandemic. He presents four methods we use in fixing our beliefs or resolving doubt. In ascending order, weakest to strongest: 1. Tenacity. If a doubt arises about X, take a particular position on X, constantly reiterate that position to yourself in a way that you begin to believe X, then shut out anything that might cause you to doubt X. [David Agler] 2. Authority. Victor said it, that settles it, I believe it. 3. Agreeable to Reason (a priori). We simply think through whatever doubt we have until we happen upon a belief that seems right to us. [David Agler] 4. Science. The scientific method. For more on critical thinking, doubt, belief and curiosity, check out Anthony Magnabosco's fascinating channel about street epistemology. https://youtube.com/c/AnthonyMagnabosco210

Rocky, the videos and books you recommend here are always appropriate and excellent and helpful. Thank you. And thank you ALL for making GSC available to anyone seeking understanding. I don't know if critical thinking makes one smarter, but it sure helps in making one freer. Free from the bondage of belief. I especially liked Michael Shermer's section. He says, "The problem is this: None of us has the truth." I'll amend that slightly. The problem is BELIEVING you have the truth. The Truth (that which is eternal) is nothing to possess. Anyone claiming to possess the Truth surely doesn't. What is the legend of Socrates? The oracle deemed him the wisest of all because he first admitted to knowing nothing. I was admonishing my son last week to BELIEVE no one. Either you know or don't know. Belief can be very dangerous. Find out for yourself. Ask lots of questions. Doubt is a virtue. Don't be afraid of doubting; be afraid of believing. Lately, I've been reading Charles S. Peirce's "The Fixation of Belief." This video dovetails perfectly.

My sixth-grader recently wrapped up a unit on early Christianity in his World History class. He asked what I thought about some historical data points like Jesus' birth date and the tradition of the Christmas holiday. I sighed deeply while avoiding dogmatism and complicated journeys into historical-critical rabbit holes. Finally, he answered his own question: What does it really matter?!? Yes, I said. Yes. (It only matters to those obfuscating with sleight of hand and intellectual dishonesty. But it might also matter honest, authentic scholars.) All children inherently have a heightened spiritual awareness and perception. That is until they are taught, indoctrinated, programmed. My child has always been forced to attend a wierwille-worshipping fellowship by his mother. I'm grateful his spiritual sense isn't yet completely blunted.

First - Thank you all for every word you've ever written here. GSC has been an invaluable source of insight into the pathology of twi. Now, onto topic relevance: Thanks for the LCM Archive.org link. I've been looking for LCM material there for some time, but without success. (Archive.org is great, but vast and cumbersome to navigate.) Archive.org also has lots of vpw material, including full transcripts and audio of AC '71/'79; full transcripts and audio of Romans Corps teaching from vpw; full video of vpw teaching CF&S, excluding the beastiality. Vpw and lcm's voices cause me to recoil in severe, vomitous discomfort, but I find the transcripts are helpful to see through the utter BS, inaccuracies, fallacies and childish exegesis.