Nathan_Jr

Sure. You can also see it pointed to in Asian and Persian scripture and poetry. And, yes, old or ancient writings are not necessarily better, truer or more important because of their age. But the dilettante will disagree.

Thanks, Raf. The errors and contradictions in the Bible are only problematic for inerrantists. This is something I understood before taking "the class." I think I've been pretty clear about what inspiration of scripture means to me. But maybe I haven't. Truth is pointed to in the Bible AND outside the Bible in other scripture written by other people at different times. Truth is not confined to one collection of writings from one place in time. Whatever path I am on is exactly the path I need to go down. I DO need to go down it, whether or not the proselytizer or I like it or want it to be so. I don't know this because of discarded "faith." In fact, without "faith" I couldn't know this or accept it. Doctrine is of man's whimsy, arbitration and opinion. This is not a problem as long as we pay attention and are aware of the inherent limits. Teachers and teachings can be helpful pointers, but, ultimately, one must find out for oneself, otherwise the path will only be illuminated by someone else... has nothing been learned here? Sorry... huh??

This is true. Not pulled; rather, ejected, projected, spewed. Victor's God, it seems to me, is very flawed, egotistical, shallow, incompetent. Kinda like victor himself. Victor made God in his own image. God is in the publishing business? God wrote some books a long time ago? The Bible is God, written by God, interpreted by..... well, itself....which is God, the Bible, the Word, the Will? Really? Bull$hit. Or maybe I just don't get it. Maybe I just need to get taught more, have all this rubbed into me through repetition until I believe because believing implies obedience.

Authority implies authorship in a way, right? Why grant authority to one ancient book? I can write a book, then I will be the author. I will be an authority and so will the book I authored. There are some astonishingly beautiful poetry and prose in the Bible. Especially, the KJV. Some truly moving passages that affect me profoundly. I think the Greeks or Romans called this quality the numinous. Scripture and poetry and prose from all over the world has affected me in this very same, knee-buckling way. Same for music and nature and rare moments in time with loved ones. It seems to me, and I know nothing, that contriving authoritative, dogmatic, systematic theological doctrines from any scripture tips one's hand that he just doesn't get it That he is a dilettante. He is a teacher of how (H-O-W). Those that can't do, teach. (I hate this cliche because it's so often untrue, but in this context it fits like a....)

Can you try to rephrase this sentence? I don't understand what you mean.

I just think we need to always pay attention to the claims of authority. Trust, yes, but only as far as it can be verified. Who is the authority and why is he called that? Says who? So what? Oh, he says so of himself by himself? So what? The music coordinator says so? Are you f#cking kidding me? He calls himself Reverend? He calls himself Doctor? Yogi? Guru? He wrote a book? He has a class? Good for him. Bless his little heart. I need an automotive authority when my car needs service. I need a medical authority if I'm having surgery. And so on... But for matters of the Spirit, of God, of Life, Truth, Love, of that which is eternal (the Word?), there can be no authority. One must find out for one's self. Dogmatic doctrines don't even come close to any of this in my experience. I am no authority. Please do not take my word for it.. It's so easy to find someone who knows, the authority.... (hint) he's the one with the right doxy.... no, not that one.... the other..... yeah, that one. I know next to nothing. And I embrace this not knowing.

I was 'taught" that the Bible is a dictionary. Literally. A Greek and Hebrew dictionary, precisely. With a straight, smiling face the "teacher" "taught" this. He was a dilettante, also.

My fellowship father-in-da-word, and all those who deferred to him, often asked, "What does God say?" Of course, this always (without exception) meant: What does the KJV Bible say as it interprets itself according to vic-paul? God is so limited that he could only speak to the handful of literate men of Iron/Bronze Age Near East? And not only to the elite of that time and place, but only then again (after six others) to a dilettante charlatan of mid 20th century Ohio? Who or what is this God?

Thanks for the warning

That's a good little article. From Lagos of all places - not far from the wierwille-worshipping sodomites in Cameroon. If the Word was in the beginning, then obviously the Word can't be the Bible. So, what was in the beginning? What does the Bible say? Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. To me the Word is ineffable. I don't know for certain what the Word is, but I'm pretty sure what it is NOT: The Word is NOT the words.

“You have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, in your hearts, so that you don’t need anyone to teach you what is right. For he teaches you all things, and he is the Truth, and no liar.” (I John 2:27). * uh-oh

How astute. The manipulative power of suggestion. The dark persuasion. The classic playbook of the cult leader. When one’s mind has been dulled and blunted from inexhaustible dogmatic platitudes rubbed in repetitively through “holding forth,” one can easily be lead to draw the cult leader’s desired conclusions. “No one forced you believe or revere vpw or the accuracy that he teaches. God gave everyone free will. You have the power to choose. It’s up to you. It’s your choice of your own free will. No one is holding a gun to your head. But I wouldn’t grumble if I were you. Don’t do it…. Doooon’t do it.” — Actual answer given to me when I asked a very simple question of “the class”coordinator, the fellowship father in the word, the ex-corps sychophant.

I think many have said this. As you've pointed out before, begotten Christ figures are everywhere in ancient literature and scripture. But what about this threat from the johniam? We are to enjoy it while we can. I get that part. That's easy. But when we CAN'T. Is he saying we won't be able to enjoy it when we can't?

VPW said your criminality or devilish trickery, if unseen, is only problematic if you believe it is. Based on this "foundational truth" I'm wondering: if you don't believe the acceptance of the Trinity is a devilish trick, is it?

These are great questions. Is accepting a Trinity a trick of the adversary if one doesn't believe it is? Like when one behaves like a criminal in private. Does the Adversary exist if one doesn't believe it does? Again, if no one is watching.

Thanks, T-Bone. I was wondering about what seems to be the over-arching tone of Johniam's OP. It seems argumentatively threatening. What do you suppose this threat is about? Who is he arguing with? There is an eschatological theme to "enjoy it while you can." I wasn't corps, so I'm not an expert on the devil. What's going on here?

The right alternative? Exactly. Everyone's doxy is the orthodoxy according to who's proclaiming it. But everyone can't be right. So, maybe, everyone is wrong and the truth is something else entirely. I don't know, nor do I claim to know. The Bible was written over thousands of years by dozens, if not hundreds, of authors and editors with different opinions and theologies and agendas. Different theologians have derived different doctrines from the same diverse collection of books we call the Bible. Right? I'm just trying to enjoy all this while I still can. Presumably, before it's too late. Because God's love is perpetual, until it's not. So I've been told.

Right. I never considered the Bible to be God until I took "the class." Later, I came to understand the words, like "pros," are NOT the Word. Some thoughts to enjoy while one can.

I don't think Thomas is helpful for this discussion. Maybe the infancy Gospel of Thomas says something about when he was begotten or else his pre-existence, but that is very late... and very weird. My earlier point was about how different the Christologies are between say Mark and John.

Thomas doesn’t have a narrative. Only sayings.

Kinda depends on which Gospel you read.

The Trinity developed over time as do all theological doctrines. I think Tertullian coined the term in the late 2nd century. (Later, Tertullian became a Montanist, SIT and prophesying more in one week than Paul and Victor combined did in their lifetimes.) The fourth and latest Gospel was the basis for this doctrine, obviously. John's was of a very high Christology. One might imagine, if this was the only gospel available to an early church assembly, why they might think Jesus was God. But this doctrine is ultra early when considered in the context of other spurious doctrines like five crucified and dispensational systematic theology. Both of those were hand--crafted like a fine APA in the 19th century.

Actually, if victor, bless his little heart, were still alive he might have found meekness, humility and silence. He might have repented with Godly sorrow. Only then might he have found what honest pursuit of Truth really means. Only then can the student be ready; and when the student is ready, the master appears. Sometimes, in order to understand what is, we need to contrast what it is not: the dark with the light, the good with the evil, victor paul wierwille with the Truth. If victor were still alive, I would let him sit at my feet, but not for long, because how embarrassing!

Thanks Mark, Please accept my loving correction. The goal of gaslighting is to make the gaslighted question everything they themselves discern and KNOW to be real and true, creating a codependent relationship with the gaslighter. This is abuse. This is brainwashing. This is evil. I suspect most here were too hooked and confused to confront or correct any leader. This was by victor's design. And once they woke up to Truth, they dropped it all and split. Though there are a few here who did confront leadership while still in. They've told their stories here. Sadness for not trying to correct those taught up by VPW? Probably not. More likely anger at the deceiver and his deceiving minions for the destruction of lives. Angry at the deceiver, VPW, for deceiving those seeking God; and angry at themselves for believing God is to be found through any mortal man with an engraved bracelet. Writing against victor wierwille, bless his tiny hard heart, is to write for the Truth.

It just occurred to me there are at least 8 TMOGs. Victor, bless his little heart, ANOINTED Loy's head with oil. OIL. Doesn't that make Loy the 8th TMOG?