Nathan_Jr

Is that what his father shows him? Let me guess -- the second showing establishes it. Because his father might change his mind, he needs at least two showings. Piles and piles and piles of bullsh¡t. (It wouldn't be as funny if you did make it up.)

Thanks, Mark. What a neat, succinct excerpt! I think it was Theophilus of Antioch who is first credited with using the term Trinity c.170CE. He didn't mean three in one, but a plurality, as this article suggests. His Trinity was the Mind (nous), the Word (logos), and the Wisdom (sophia) - citing a verse in Psalms for the divine Sophia. (Gosh, I could be mis-retemorizing all of this!) I think Paula Fredrickson once was affiliated with Stanford. She's one of my favorite historians. Yeah, real scholarship, real research. They don't begin with conclusions there.

THA or AH seed of the serpent lady? A distinction. Like AMOG or TMOG. Was this door to door witnessing a persistent occurrence in Gunnison? How much of an impact did or does TWI have on this little town? My brother went to college in Gunnison at Western State, but he chose to live in Crested Butte and commute. It was an hour and a half each way, I think. He was adamant about NOT EVER living in Gunny. He hated it, but he loved Crested Butte. He seemed to hate Gunnison as much as he loved the Butte. I always found this peculiar. I wonder if the presence of TWI's commanders could have affected his experience with the locals. He surely would have been labeled a seed boy.

This thread is pure gold!! The stories are simultaneously fascinating and horrifying. A request is tantamount to a command? Like a request for a foot rub? Or a request for fellatio? A request to abort an embarrassing and incriminating pregnancy? Bullsh¡t. (One might expect a logical evolution of paradigms from military general to athletic coach, especially after "Athletes of the Spirit." After all the effort to manufacture error in translation and interpretation in order to make it fit a carnal narrative, why not commit to the metaphor? I mean, a lot of creative and imaginative work went into changing what the text says to support the cringeworthy "Athletes of the Spirit." The fact is, Paul alternated between athletic and military metaphors - he used BOTH, and it's not a contradiction.) **Sorry. Athletes of the Spirit was a chunk of vomit stuck in my throat for some time. Had to get I out.

I really like where you've taken this thread, T, and I don't want to derail it. Maybe I'll start another thread, or maybe one already exists that addresses this bullsh¡t. I've thought about these quotes for years. They've always bothered me. TWLIL p178 quote sounds like vic is threatening or blackmailing his god. And his god will talk to someone who threatens him with an ultimatum, even one who CANNOT BELEEEEVE. So.... huh? Belief is not required to hear from his god? Apparently, even SIT is not required to get audible revelation from his god. And then on p209: He learned wherever he could? What? He didn't learn from his god who promised to teach him for fear of having to take the whole thing? So, he worked it by his five senses? His easily manipulated god didn't do the work of teaching it? Which is it? His god taught him or he worked it? Why does his god need a little charlatan to MAKE it fit? And why is his god reacting to threats from such a shriveled hireling?

All Christian theological doctrine and dogma is developed over time. Early Christianity was as doctrinally diverse as it is today. Converts were trying to make scientifically exact and mathematically precise systematic theological sense of the unquantifiable, the ineffable, since the very beginning. Some won, some lost. Yet, remnants of all early so-called orthodoxy and so-called heresy persist today. Why is religious theology, as developed over time, so maligned by a religious man who contrived his own theology over time? This pretense about getting back to the first century hopes everyone ignores the fact that hyper-dispensationalism is a religious doctrinal dogmatic man-made tradition developed in the 19th century, not the first century, and "adhered to as though it were divine revelation."

II Corinthians 4:16 is the claimed proof text. HOWEVER, speaking in tongues as a prerequisite to revelation is not the context or meaning. A real non sequitur proof. Pure, hot, steamy bullsh¡t. "So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self his being renewed day by day."

Fair guess.

Or he remains in denial. She said he attended counseling sessions only because they were mandated or obligatory but never embraced the exercise. Therapy can lead to real awakening and liberation, but it requires acceptance and a willingness to look honestly at oneself. Until then, he has no new light to shine. No light at all. None. It's his free will choice to remain in darkness.

Yep. Central. Fundamental. Foundational. His deeply profound insecurity may not be mentioned enough, but this quality is clearly evident in every letter to his early congregational off-shoot, every Corpse letter, and even in quotations attributed to him in POP. Though much of POP is spurious, the quotes showing his whiny insecurities are too embarrassing to be made up by a sycophant like Greer, they are an unintentional indictment of his narcissism.

We stand for those we respect, either voluntarily or compulsorily, according to social norms. We stand for the judge AND the jury in a courtroom. Soldiers stand at attention for their commanders. Does everyone stand for the President? (I'm thinking of the press corps - do journalists stand at a press conference when the President enters?) Here in the Deep South, some of us stand for women whenever they stand, and sit after they sit. I suspect standing for an authoritative figure goes back to emperors and kings, who were usually military leaders. Standing for self-proclaimed religious leaders has its tradition in the Catholic Church - not 1st century, not Paul (as much as he would have loved the attention). If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

If you want to eat anywhere near victor, but you want to follow Paul, just cross out the verse. Just cross it out. It wasn't in the original. None that I've ever seen, and I've been to Germany. Plus, it just doesn't make sense the way it interprets itself. Anyway, like Bullinger and his Trinity, Paul wasn't accurate about EVERYTHING. If Paul could have believed big enough to live long enough, he would have seen how much fun slander and greed and drunkenness and rape and swindling could be.

If Paul could have lived long enough, he could have taken the advanced class to learn that slandering those opposed to idolatry and rape is only a problem if you BELEEEVE it is. In this verse, Paul is describing victor with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision not known since...well, since Paul wrote it... I guess Paul didn't know any saints who were sinners. (That cop out must have come in a later dispensation.) Paul said don't even eat with people like victor. Don't even eat with such people! Just tremendous accuracy. 1 Corinthians 5:11 (NIV) But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Sorry to hear this. Endeavoring to make sense of the evil fraud that is vpw and twi can trigger trauma responses that are as malignant as the crimes suffered - the persistent rotting fruit. It's a trap. I do pray, and I will.

I don't think DWBH still posts here, but I'm so grateful for all his contributions. Did anyone else experience this? It reminds me of getting a call over the intercom to report to the principal's office in middle school or high school. It also reminds me of summer camp where an announcement would be made over the loud speakers if one's mother called or a package arrived. My question is: what was the script? "DWBH, report to the doctor's office, immediately!" This just cracks me up. Anyone have any insight?

Thanks, Chockfull. So, it's the ministry rightly divided?? The rightly divided ministry? The ministry, the ministry and nothing but the ministry? The will of God is the ministry of God? Hey, if doesn't fit, MAKE it fit.

This! When the veil is lifted, what you will see cannot be unseen. This seeing is clarity of perception. But another cannot see it for you. Another's claimed light is not the light that will illuminate. This clarity of perception cannot be taught. No amount of teaching can SEE the Truth for you. You can only see it for yourself. You either see it, or you don't.... until you do.... no one can see it for you. When one sees the Truth, one realizes it is nothing to be possessed. Beware the one claiming to HAVE the Truth, for he surely does not.

Dominate, Obey, Commit, Command, Indoctrinate, Program, Persuade, Conform, Submit to the hireling....Defecate in the mouth of God and call it moving the word...

As usual, this makes me laugh out loud, but it also make me sad and angry because I know it's true. Members of AA receive chips as they achieve milestones in their sobriety: 30 days, 90 days, 6 months... Often, by the one year mark, the addict has achieved deep humility and gratitude, sublime clarity of thought, and a certain level of divine awareness and perception. Every sober addict will humbly tell you (only if probed) that it's because of God. But they have nothing to sell, nothing to prevail with, nothing to teach/preach, yet their abundant life is obvious and will share if asked. My Corps-trained fellowship leader went WOW in RI in the late 70's or early 80's. He said they couldn't sell one class all year because everyone in that city was an assh@le. Not that there could possibly be something wrong with how (H-O-W) he himself was selling! No humility. No examination of the self. No examination of the tactics or strategy. No examination of the product. I once worked in sales for a Fortune 100 company for over ten years. I would never have been successful if I used the cop out, "The buyers are all assh@les, so I won't hit my goal this month." I would have been fired.

Can you link the article? It seems a $5 fee is required to read it. (Apparently, God's word is not freely given.) I refuse to give another dime to this corporation. Is WOW based on Mark 6:15?

Was this an actual quote? It makes sense, even if T7TMOG never said it. HOWEVER, I thought the Word was the Will and the Will was the Word? BUT, it's the Ministry that's the Word? The Ministry, the Ministry, and nothing but the Ministry. This is what it's all about. The ministry, the corporation, the 501c3.

Perfect. Thanks.

My man in Amsterdam! Thanks, T-Bone. Philippians 2:6? Maybe this verse is handled in a different chapter, but it seems relevant here, even important. It's from one of the undisputed letters of the Pauline corpus speaking to the divine nature of Christ. Victor placed Paul way above Christ, so it seems he would address what Paul wrote about this issue. Thanks, again, T!

Right. If I had a copy of the book, I'd definitely do the research myself. I don't own any of his books.

Ok. Thanks. Someone knows. I'll wait. The title of victor's book was calculated to garner attention, foster controversy and cause division. In that sense, it was without error. Though vic claimed accuracy, attention and reverence were all he cared about (along with the three P's). We will have to agree to disagree about vic's book: it was less than ok.