mj412

yep That is true few people in twi know what the bible says regarding any subject. They can quote a class or a book from the ministry but move just a hair away from a teaching and they have nothing . for a reaserch minstry this is very telling. God is not so small as the way ministry.

yes I do ask them that about the teachings on sex and scripture and what is the official position on cheating in marriages. The ones I know do not have a problem with adultry being wrong but they have not gone so far as to come up with a teaching from the way on this topic yet.

Im not "in" I speak to those who do 'word studies and have meetings and like the minstry. That is NoT true they do admit to the wrongs done and it is all those who are no longer involved doing!!! the household is wiser and cleaner now they are gone.. meaning those who have left or thrown out. About teaching things that are wrong, well when I was in they also taught things that where wrong by many many opinions that has not changed at all . Twi has always considered the ministry as cutting edge or different in their doctrines than main stream. As far as LCM I have spoken to those in about him and they say he is no longer the president and Rosie is. It is true they do not speak evil of people for the most part and try to redirect the conversation towards the teachings of the classes. This also is nothing NEW to the cult. Public apology ? come on is that what will stop a cult in your opinion? nearly all the "wrong doers people can pin with facts are no longer involved themselves! so how could twi grant that wish for you? I am just not hatefull and I do not seek vengence from folks who can now clearly say all these problems have little or nothing to do with where the "ministry" is at now. Cool water. well now I guess your warning is needed for many areas of life. to try to instill fear does not stop those who think God loves them best and will protect them it never did . I do not believe twi keeps a child molester in its ranks as a leader for their own gain or pleasure. do I think child molesters can be involved in twi? probably, they can be anywhere and your warning is a fact.

out of the fog. I was in twi2 I went back and I pulled some who had gotten involved out and they got hurt very very very badly and they still suffer well till they got involved in an off- shoot (hah a ) (ok not so funny but what eles can I do? yes I agree I watched and I could not believe it !!!1 Un freaking believable what these families went through . BUT here my thing i went to the meeting I did I had realtioships with the leaders... but I was never harrassed. they might have asked once... not again . They clearly knew I was pulling people out of the control and they never and I mean to tell you never and to this day approached me as wrong or threatened me or "did" anything to me. they never say I cant go to a meeting in fact they still want me to go even a couple of months ago. I was marked and I didnt give a flying crap either I still went back and will continue to do so when the Lord so directs. HA! Why??? I do not want to hurt anyone but this is Just the truth , because I know the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord not a man or some woman . And I truly Love God and those who love HIm . Have I cried about the sorrow and pain I have watched some suffer? YES I have but I realize they chose to not fix the car and go to the advance class instead and lost their job because of it and now are homeless.. oh I saw the mess people did for twi. key word for twi . I never signed on for twi and I still do not . I know it God knows it and His people know it. God loves His children Jesus will never forsake US! After I was marked I never and I mean to tell ya never gave a crap what any person in or out told me to do or think I pray I think I can help and I do what I wanted. Honestly they do not ask me to prove anything. But see I realize some needed to learn what I learned from twi1 in twi2 and I allow them to learn it and help the cause as much as I am able! I never suffered in twi2 and I do not suffer with twi today when I deal with them they are only people and grown up can tell people no, the problem is people didnt want to face the consequences of not being in a cult and people pleasing. It is rough at first but I tell ya God is better than people for trusting for me.

The ones I talk to think that the bad situations in the way in the past was because WE WERE THE EVIL ONES! do you not get this? now it is like the new and so much more improved twi! all the bad evil followers who had problems are gone because God cleaned it up for them. God loves them more than He ever did us . They will freely admit to problems (they can not deny or out right lie anymore) they will tell you how it was bad because of those who are now on site like GS, and the off shoots those people have/had problems.. now the household is clean . I thought I saw arrogance before but now it is unbelievable they honestly believe they are so much better and improved for God and God loves them so much better than He ever did the previous believers. (unbelieving believers) . yes they do still lose some to sites such as Gs when a new person gets a look BUT it does not stop the mind set that the household is so much better and sweeeter now than then. they are still good decent folks thinking they are serving God , they are no more evil than we were when we thought twi held God in its power and control.. maybe you do not want to hear that because your bitter or full of rage , ok then I understand. But to say something that happened twenty years ago applies today just doesnt cut it when the sell is a new and improved and we learned from the wrongs they did and they are gone now . The plea is still love for one another and God the fact that those here who think what happened decades ago still concerns them is just niave sp. it is not approached that way at all. they openly speak of the problems (of the past of course) as the very reason twi is persecuted today and so much smaller. They will tell you very quickly the evil leaders and followers who did wrong and how it is all different today! the household is clean guys. the posters on Gs and the off shoots are the dirty rats who caused the problems is the concept applied. do you not get that? that is how they sell and think. just like it was many years ago , you may have had a valid point but the love and excitement of doing the best for God blinded what others may say about something you felt you belonged to. a higher purpose for God is a pretty solid selling point even today and even after all the lessons posted by the very ones who failed . it is a cult . I do not believe it is a news flash that things went wrong in the way , everyone knows it and those who stuck through those hard times feel even more self righteous and powerful,today not less. It is good to write storys on the internet but realize and think about how much is done with pure hate and bitterness and well is it effective ? for those who think they have found a source of love and true concern for God and His people (think and remember truly think and remember) does it add to their life and information? No it sounds like the household had problems and they are glad it is so much better now... without them. What GS offers is alot of people agreeing with one another that TWi was an evil cult. What twi sells is a place where God lives and breathes among its people, I have to tell ya (even if ya do not want to hear it) they are great and wonderfull people for the most part just like those who post here they do not get involved because they want to hurt one another any more than anyone at GS got involved and knew how it would end up. I would not approach this as an us and them thing, I am them I was them and forever we all happen to be us. To seek vengence clearly is not working for anyone . It just proves that those gone out of twi are bitter and mean spirited and "off" the bible verse. giving more fuel to the fire that God would indeed love them more. When did other christians become the enemy for you? When did hate and bitterness replace understanding and Love for one another? It is a cult because people chose to believe the idea they are better and more able than others which twists the mind and is a lie. are you still in a cult?

So rascal your saying you think many complied out of fear? ok I believe that is true but it spits in the teaching of pfal does it not? (it was fear in the heart of that mother etc.) It turned into people pleasing and a cult environment for some then I believe that is true.

I am saying I think those who did comply thought it came from someone who cared about them and had their best interests in mind. If not why would anyone comply? I truly believe many thought they where doing the right thing for people by getting involved. It went both ways those doing the asking and those giving the information. I do not think twi was about hate I really do not , it was a cult because people made it a cult . it takes those willing to obey as well as those willing to ask . I know of people in the off shoots and in the way today and in the past who think their obedience made a huge difference in their life and in the life of others. those who are unhappy with what it took may be bitter now that they did what they did , that is true of life in many areas . As grown up we realize people pleasing may not be what is best for our own self interest. But if a person complied and obeys thinking that the leader cares about him and God it is not a problem naturally it happens everyday on the mission field . when it becomes a problem then we rethink why we signed on for such a mess but not untill . those giving direction today I believe truly believe they know what is best and those willing to do it believe they need this kind of life to be happy. it isnt wrong untill someone decides they have found a better manner to live for themself. [This message was edited by mj412 on March 15, 2004 at 17:16.]

Some do consider it love and many still do think it is neccesary"mutitude of counselors" and all. The corps was a volunteer program people knew other corps and wanted the ability to become leaders for the way. I think to complain about something most did know was required by the organization you represent is not honest. It is true consequences happened but when we make decisions of any sort consequences happen and I do think the corps folks knew by the time they where that involved what could happen. they didnt offer the class and the next day say now fill out this information it was for the ones who wanted to move up the way tree and that demanded alot and those interested may have been foolish to think it was something other than what it is. I know many who went in and came right back out for different reasoning . In a job of course a pay check is involved and we consider the facts but the way corps was also a commintment to the way ministry (or to God if you want to look at it that way I never did)they wanted you to take seriously . Where people that stupid going in? or did they consider what they were doing and think about what it meant? Once in I do believe it was to much but I think that because of the storys I heard about how it was in the corps... Im certain others knew as well whether they believed it is another story . I wouldnt do it but I knew those who did put up with alot of crap and claimed to like it untill they did not and it went to far . Is that not growing up and true of any thing we decide to do? I know of someone who lost her job and career of 20 years for a six month stit as a way ambassador.. I wouldnt do it not now BUT she made the choice and is paying some heavy dues for it , she claims it was worth it . It is up to the person I think to decide how and who runs their life but bottom line is no one is forced to do something , they may tell you God will Love you more for it I never believed that line of thought ever I never bought that corps was wiser if anything I thought they were less wise and unable to maintian a healthy life that is why they went into the way tree and asked for help to feel better . In fact I was told by clergy the fact is way corps folks were often tormented by "devil spirits" because of their work in The Way for God.. that was another reason I said to heck with that crap to serve God and be attacked and say it is all for a good cause NEVER made much sense to me. different I guess . I still believe God blesses His people and people are just people always have , it seems many mix those facts up.

I saw that movie . I actualy know people capable of huge secrets within their families. It seems to me "normal" people do not want to such information about their neighbors ya know ? I do not want someone eles garbage in my house or mind. Didnt vpw say it was fear that caused bad things to happen? I have thought about this alot as I have known folks who truly believe control is Love , the oldest child in a family often takes the leadership role on and honestly believe they know what is best for everyone. for a lifetime where as a child that is younger can not accept taking charge or make decision as well. Why would twi need to know your details? Was it for love to help your life be blessed or was it to use against you if they had to have control? Yes I think fear of having them not like you anymore motivates many in twi, but who has the problem in that situation? I mean do we all get to the point where what is most important to us become our priorities sooner or later ? people wanted leaders they wanted others to control and decide till they got enough to decide for themselves what will work for their life. Maybe it works for some still . How is it wrong if it works for you ? I do not know what their motive is or was for such a detailed scedule of a persons life but I do know it may be because people wnated it asked for it and the leaders did it in love. love is not defined very clearly untill it is for you personaly and it takes a lifetime to do that.

Mike I feel I have to metion to you . this is only a internet site . Life is bigger than a book by VPW. your not changing much with your postings. Do you have the ability to live the life full of happiness and Joy the good Lord wants for you? Do you think this is life changing or are you stuck with no where to go and nothing eles to do? your feelings and comments sound as if your out of control and unable to have a sane mind concerning these areas... You may in a depressed state of mind and unable to clearly define life and boundaries in a positive manner. Will you please seek consel other than this site and other posters, and those who have said what you want to hear?

Would it be OK for a foreign Judge to rule that if someone calls my U.S. office from another country that I cannot utter the word 'Lindows' when I answer the phone, simply because our phone lines were connected, making such a call possible? Worse yet, if I answered the phone would I incur a fine of $124,000 per day? Our phones may be connected to some of the same wires that a web visitor would travel when connecting to the Lindows.com web site. If they can insist a web site be shutdown so their residents cannot access it, why not the phone system as well? It sounds preposterous, but it is what seems to be unfolding in the Netherlands, and every Net citizen should be worried. We may be headed to a world where rich companies can shop around, looking for a friendly court and use that to ban content, ideas, products and choices which they may disagree with. I pasted for the readers who do not have time to read the enitre article. I wonder why other countries believe America is run by money . It is clear to me why . It says they can be taken to court by 191 different companies in efforts to shut them down. wow serious stuff huh?

I still talk to the B@stards sometimes! and it still ....es me off and makes me full of self doubt if it a very close friend then I make one more call and BLAM I realize they are fools that do not know me and never loved me . God loves us all song even if you think he is just my imagination it is ok , if you think bad about yourself for someone stating your possessed then I guess I can ask you to think good about your self and consider a Saviour who cares and loves your always. if you can not believe in God or the bible then song why would it bother what a fool siad about what he thought about you concerning those ideas? do not let them frighten you if you do not believe then be ok with that and if you still believe then believe in a lving positive caring God . people have zero control over your life or thoughts. unless you allow them to . love mj412

I will vote for that Mike.

I know I know Wacky but I was asked one time about who I had sex with I stood up and said I can not can not allow my dignity to be ripped away by a butch of govt workers with little or no education who mostly hate their job but cant find anything eles. I walked out and I will never go back no food stamps ever and I have lost jobs etc. I just refused to go there by personal choice and Im still glad. Call be stubborn call me pridefull whatever . I can surely tell ya a cost is to be paid working two and three jobs to try to pay the rent the kids suffer BUT I believe more when they grow up thinking they are entitled without merit or hopeless without a "system" to support them. I have a education in human service I see the long term effects of these programs even in a temporary situations and it is not good. What I eat I earn what I live in ( I love my little cottage house ) I pay for I take ownership of my life and that of my children . supplements and aid take that away from people and allow them or force them to think they are less than capable people and less than the rest of society .(even if they feel entitled) but this thread is about being a conservative gay or somethingor other sorry for the derail.

Maybe this is my problem as well. Im not boasting nothing but the truth is I and more than two children, have NEVER had insurance. I paid out of the pocket and still do . it is a motive to do the right thing and think about the type of care and quality of care my family got. How many times do people go to the childrens dr. for a shot or soemthing and the baby comes home and gets sick from being in that infested room ? sorry but true I have to tell ya . I at many many times qualified for welfare assistance but refused and prayed alot for wisdom and health and protection . We had the normal accidents children do but my children grew up knowing they are responsible for their safety and not to careless cause if mom has to pay for stitches or some stupidness they caused the money will be tighter and less for their wants . I believe in personal responsibility for our health and have truly taught my children this and IM glad. As i age if I live into being sick I will go for the retirment aid all people get at 65 but nothing additional I frankly do not believe in the idea of allowing an insurance group to be responsible for our health and certainly never the US govt and its dictates on how things should be handled. anti-depressants , aids meds , high blood pressure for being fat and lazy , drugs for behaviours in children etc, neglectfull parents etc. drain these avenues of help from the tax payers enough I want no part of it !!! Let me say this when you say "self-pay " they either shut down or move to a righteous level and after all these years I know in whom I can trust to get the job done without to much extra bull crap thrown in. I educate myself as well about problems I trust only the best! it is empowering .

yes it is the ones who love ya the most ya know?? word. in relationship where there is dysfunction words fly around like they are profound when in reality they are games and plays to control and manipulate. alot of it is fear of self and fear of losing a relationship you may link to being a part of yourself again with the "other esteem" sources. for me truth is what I know as truth on that day only yes I do consider yesterday and facts given yet my inner "truth" is only what I know. yep you asked I anwered and then you can now answer me if you like .

so does a person know when he is possessed? you went away for awhile are you back now?

What think you first the song remains the same! I think sometimes a person may know they are "not well" but I do not know any details concerning who is or is not possessed and do not care to learn. What is so important of the study of that type? I do not get it to attain a knowledge of evil ? I do not need it . the bible says evil for one day is enough to think/deal with , it seems people with the idea of naming and just what devil spirts is here or there must be attracted for some reason and I cant believe it would be a positive one for them or the devil spirit.

Does a person know when he is posessed?

You're right, but what about the MOGFOT issue? The MOGFOT says something and the "believers" turn off their brains. But, the bottom line is egotism. I know I was right there and I did it as well and even woman who where only twig leadersseemed intimidating. It is people pleasing and gaining our approval from sources Other than the One that that matters the most . People need to fill our esteem from somewhere and often it isnt even our own "self " we attempt to gain feel good feelings from "other" sources the MOG fits that idea, we think we are ok and good by the size of house we own, if our kids love us , If it is a good hair day , the education we have, our money and the relationships we have with others. the list is endless.. We can link our own personal feeling about who we are to other esteems ,Instead of knowing your a good kind honest person and building a life from the truth we can set our eyes on what another or even the society or community at large may tell us about ourself. Relgious people get "other esteem" from being linked to a group that tells them they are loved by God more than the average person etc. other esteem can fill the need of approval for us, yet it often fails us at some point as not being enough. As in twi . the MOG was link for many of esteem I had a conversation with a friend once while in TWI ( he is still in and always will be) I told him a story of a dinner I had with Rev cummings and he was acting like I was speaking to God himself and thought it was so great. Like people did with MIke Jackson or anyone who build some fame others can try to link on that fame and "feel good" and build esteem ironicly the cost is often a true knowledge of your own self and inability to be your own person in the relationship because of your lack of genuine self esteem.

Believe that? Mike you sound so full ofrevenge and bitterness and that sounds like your saying see it my way or your done. Are you giving her a warning of your Mark and Avoid??? lol Even twi wouldnt have you would they???

I think it runs even deepr Pat tha vpw worship , it is about self worship . He taught about the higher powers and the special force of the Way corps. It never sold as a service to the world at large but rather to the individual and the ministry almost exclusivly. At first it was immature young people leaving home, drug addicts and very troubled looking for acceptence many took the class because we didnt have the rules church demanded everything was grace and it didnt matter.. Then as time went on those who like to have the authority over others and liked manipulation and power trips and people pleasing gained in numbers and power in the ministry. They learned how to "make friends and influence people" the vpw way and it became a cult . I heard more clergy threaten and fight and agrue with one another not over helping someone over controling people and situations . They enjoyed the worship fame of twi brought from the people for their own selfs.

it may suck I am not even sure what you mean by "suck" other than draining yes indeed it does that. but it can not be denied in the many forms it appears in life. a flat tire brings you help??? I had to get the car some help in my situation with a flat tire .

Really for me the idea that God is alive for our benefit and surplus is just wrong. the Way taught that "God wanted a family" well like so many spoiled brats in our world that turned into the idea that give me or you do not really care give give give memememem ME. or Im going to have a tantrum and blame my brother and sister for my errors and problems in life! God wants obedience , worship, fear and a great many other huge details the way forgot to metion in the road to the do not worry be happy with what you have or do not (it is all your weakiness) life of a believer. But the idea sold well, a free ride in life by believing a invisable source of endless what ever we want in life looks good for a sale. We even had songs about Gods spoiled KIDS remember? Problem is the real DEAL and paper work contract that is written by HOLY scriptures on how to gain abundance and Godly life has a TON of small print involved that was never ever metioned in twi.

Do I hate or dislike alot of things? umm depends on what your discussing , I do not know what your comparing "alot" to I love alot more than I hate or dislike I would say. At least today and hopefully tommorrow. But I do hate and dislike some things as well. I disliked maybe even hated the flat tire I had last week .