mj412

this is where you call the leaders cowards Rascal . It was what the corp program was all about . I make no accusation of you yet you seem to have your full of who and what i am and have done for sure. whatever. you obviously have either changed your mind on how you feel about the bible teaching you believed back then or you lied to yourself to impress someone 19 years ago . that is indeed an outrage and Im sorry you had to go through that.

it is called many many things wayward, suffering , growing up but the fact remains that is the reason grease spot flourishes. Easy ??? assumptions are made here and the cult mind set of unity and we all must unite without understanding because we love one another is what grease excels at. it was not easy it is still not easy I doubt it will ever be easy . but to grow as a person I do try to stay at least honest and not allow biterness with a self righteous attitude of victim to take root. In each case a particular can blame a particular person if they so chose I do not it was a cult and to get beyond we all need to realize a cult is built on by its people and those who complied. we grew up it is quite simple really , not easy but simple.

Rascal coward was your word which you may have edited out by now. houseisa rocking I was also M@A in a scandal so I do know and you what I see where they where coming from and thank god for it. Do I think twi was right in what they did? for Gods sake it was a cult and I have said people where used and abused in the name of God but more importantly in the name of one another which was absolutely sick and how the thing got shot to hell in the first place. to say it was all LCM or the particular leader that you chose to think was the appple of the day is being foolish all together it was a group of mind sets that applied the means to have folk compromise what they may have felt right or wrong for them. that group includes you and me. if you have changed your mind on the doctrine you chose to believe no kidding many have on many of the stuff sold. but to say you didnt believe it then and where forced or did it to please a leader or your friends or what ever makes you clearly a liar to yourself and everyone eles.

I do not know the rules and regs of the corps, I know it was a big deal to "sponor" those who went in and that met they had to write and do certain things that those willing to give them money thought they should do and compliance was of course included. It was "the word" remember? I always thought those going in the corps where intending on becoming full time ministers of the gospel and to "move the word" in other words get people born again and make twi a place they would honor and yes pledge their commintments to . I also assumed those going into the corps realized just where twi was coming from on what was important to their life and allegence to leaders and twi was for sure a top notch priority. I know it must have been difficult for many by the numbers of those I know that left and tried to to get back in find sponors and such. the folks I know that wanted to or went into the corps where rabid twi people and I still have little doubt they knew what it may take from their personal life, family life or anything . many spent a year or more sucking up to the LC before they went in and learned exactly what it was .

people were misled no doubt but in many circumstances in life if you can not complete the guidelines for graduation then you do not get the nut. the pot calling the kettle black ? is that what your saying ? lolololol hahaha I would agree and then some . but this issue is about getting pregnate in a program where it is not going to work. folks were told or conseled to get an abortion because many thought as the way taught that a pregnancy is part of the womans own personal issue until the child takes a breath. this was not a new flash of intimidation the way has always taught that you should not get pregnate while in res and that abortion is an option for an unwanted pregnancy. if someone thinks it is wrong then they should not get pregnate or not comply with a program that wholly endorses what the way taught as truth or be willing to take the chance and get pregnate and leave the program for your own personal integrity and choices in life. many did .

It may read better to say it was not a requirement to have an abortion to be a a believer in the way , which is how I met it to read. I have no doubt rascal or anyone was told any number of things which we chose to believe or not and that is why the grease spot forum is here. I agree there was pressure to perform, I also know many who left to leave the corps for family issues that could not be resolved at the time they were in residence ,some went back in later when the situation did merit twi's approval once again some did not. but they were not marked and avoided for leaving the corps in the eighties anywyas it happened alot actualy. I know of one couple that went in four different times years apart and last I knew had left again due to a sick child so I think the way had its prioritity and that was the way and most I assume knew that by the time they made the choice to go into the corps program the requirements of that program. No I wouldnt have ever compromised my family the way I saw corps families live, but the fact some did chose to think it was what they were suppose to do is not evil and or cowardly as you say Rascal. If it was a mistake for some as they look back well mistakes happen in life ya know and I do believe God does consider the fact most went in to try to please HIM and His Son or they went in to please the leader friends they thought they had and got disappointed .

They insisted you follow the rules of the program in which you made a commintment to when you signed on. they taught breath life as a solution to your problem . and yes it was a problem concerning the rules you said you would obey when you joined. I know plenty and I mean plenty who went into the corps and left for many reasons ,sometimes their own misgivings as OM implied, it was your choice to put what twi said was an option as the one you chose. they never said someone had to have an abortion to be a dulos Rascal .

I will ask simply then since you do not understand the question or just avoiding it. What do you believe concerning breath life doctrine that twi taught Rascal? did you change your mind about this ? or did you comply to something you believed was wrong because of consel you sought while in twi?

yes I agree with your last post. and i believe people got hurt . but Om began this post about what folks think about the abortion laws that are now in place about fetal protection. I get what OM is discussing I think he wants to discuss how these new ideas jive with what twi taught as breath life. it does not have to turn into a personal attack about who was stupid in the cult. so rascal I assume although you have only implied you no longer agree with the teaching on breath life? you think what now then?

The person having an abortion by their own choice a choice twi said if this then that if that then this. Twi did not perform abortions. did they teach breath life ? Yes. did you believe it? yes. Twi has never said the teaching on when life is life was wrong then or now. Yes rascal alot of folks got hurt including those trying to live within the borders and teachings taught which would be leaders as well. You sound like you want punishment . and the guilty would be who exactly ? every person involved in making decisions while involved in the cult the honezst answer would cover all I suppose. Good luck on that . I do not want to punish anyone God loved us then and loves us all now . I refuse to point fingers and stand on some self righteous platform of a forever victim. many were victims of much bad situations and I seriously do not believe the majority sat up at night and plotted evil against their brothers and sisters for kicks. it was a cult and people got hurt. If the fact you now believe the bible teachings you once believed as truth for your life are wrong and evil say so , but to stretch it and say "the leaders" formulated the plan and forced you for their own gain and just to cause you life long pain only shows how very unforgiving you are of yourself and anyone eles that was into twi.

not for me. Because I would not trust the organization again, in fact I now have trouble trusting anything with such dictates in my life. But I do think it will thrive and possibly be a group that does change people . Greasespot may scream at the thought because I think many here want the way to go away from everywhere. Im not one who is angry at twi, I really could be my story rocks on evil and being victimized. yet time will and has gone bye and plenty of people still want answers and a righteous feeling to live above others in the name of Jesus christ. The success of the off shoots of twi speak on the fact people are still drawn to groups that claim to be able to make a difference for the world. I actualy know people who should go back into twi and be happy again. but it can not be fixed for me .

One more thing Rascal Blame twi all you want it isnt hurting anyone at all mostly not them, But I do pray to God you stop blaming your own self, because your rage and pain clearly sounds as if it hurts you still. Im not the one nor are you to keep pace with all of the evil in this world , mistakes are made everyday and folks often do 180's on subjects when given additional information that is just life. I happen to have mellowed as I have aged but the bible has not changed in its words and the insight given on these types of matters as with many deeply personal choices truly has to be a piece filled in only by the merciful Father of us all.

I miss thinking I am going to a place where people care about me and they know how to pray for me and we are safe and loved together by a mighty God. I have never felt that since. I also miss thinking I was learning the best of Gods words from the bible and how it could apply to my life and make a difference for me and my family. I still study and read but I have less ability to think it is all the truth and going to work without a doubt . I miss the smiles of loving one another.

The responsibility (your word not mine) would be in making a decision for your life. your choice was to listen to what people you trusted said you should do that is the resposibility of each individual. responsible choices are difficult to make at many stages in life and we are often blind sided by influences we trust and maybe should not have Rascal. If you disagreed with the scripture they referenced then you could have clearly said so and made a different choice and faced different consequences . If in time passed you have changed your ideals of what reference is right or wrong for your life it does not make twi any more wrong. You changed your mind about what you believed and feel angry you may have once believed wrongly and suffered for it. it happens in life about many many things it is growing up getting older becoming wiser and that is what forgivness is all about. As far as I know twi has never changed their teaching about breath life. The fact they teach it as scripture or even as an easy avenue to make the choice for having an abortion does not take away the fact it is a medical procedure that each and every individual must make as a patient and no one else can force or sign them up for it.

This is a difficult discussion . I think now that I will nothave anymore children time has passed and changed I have as well. breath life is the theory I learned about "life". Yet now is it appears to me life is so much more than breathing isnt it? I will always want the choice for woman to be able to get a abortion. always regardless of details I think it is a womans choice.. do I think it could be murder? Yes I do in the age I live in I have seen very very tiny fetus or infants live. I live in a top neonatal town in america and the stories are awesome . yet in Africa how many die within the first two years of life and/or never make it to birth or moments beyond? more than 1/2 . am I also responsible for the fact millions may be spent in dollars to save one baby in my home town while millions die on that very same birthday for lack of any health care? I am not pro-abortion and if a woman truly has a relationship of love and trust with god and her Lord Jesus christ the bible tells of many mircle MOMs God took care of in super duper fashion and style including single moms ... But we live here and we are a country of compassion that allows a poor baby to be born, and the disabled to receive life long care. We are also a country of cold hard times with drug abuse and dads with sexual problems and rape... It must be a choice and a personal one between God and the woman . Heads will fly on this comment but I agree with OM on this issue completely. Did we not all do things we should not of? Did we all compromise our choices? Did we all play the fool and get burned for it ? Did we all do things in shame and guilt or pride and power or both ? We can not turn back time. the past is the pastbut unless dealt with in an adult healthy mind set will guilt a person for the rest of your life if you allow it. If a person had an abortion because they chose to listen to people they trusted as friends and leaders they chose to have an abortion. they signed the papers for the procedure and went into the Dr.s office and did what they had to do . we make choice in life we regret and to say it is all because of a another influence shows a lack of ability to face our own consequences. blaming twi for an abortion is just not correct, blaming your parents, blaming a boyfriend, the dr or any person who influences your decision wont help . the scripture reference Om uses makes it easier to make the choice with a righteous Im not doing anything wrong or hurting anyone attitude at the time. but all are aware of the fact it terminates the pregnancy and can at any time refuse the treatment and or procedure. yes it is a difficult choice and I would like to hear from a woman who said no and kept the baby and how that went for them in twi. they probably just left and carried on with life . You can not blame a cult for being a cult a cult is a mindset of the people involved , if an indifidual chose to not buy the scripture reference about breath life they may not quite fit in as nicely in the cult and that is the cost many woman where not willing to pay . twi was loaded with girls willing to have sex come on be honest and the consequence of sex is often a pregnancy... when did it become the men only problem hmm? Im not talking about rape a woman could say no to sex but did not and well crap happened . I do not think this reference is to allow MOG to have free and ample sex without babies when I saw women manipulating just as much as the men. We are older now and think we know better than the days we spent involved with a group claiming a like mind on such a complex subject... and we know time changes and people realize life is so much more than just the breath we take. I consider it wisdom .

My opinon about who Jesus is from personal experiences. which includes prayer and reading the bible but the bible is last the bible just fills in the story so i understand my own spirit living better. I began a thread a while back about where is Jesus today and what is His job today. I think He has changed from a man with a desire and will to obey God to a Livng Messiah with the reserection and rewards God gave Him that allows him to plan and build a new life for us without Sin or satan. In the furture he will be King of the new world , then again he will change into great man doing Gods will when he hands all of us over to Our creator for the final time.

only if you sit on the seat oakspear. your just to all powerful am I suppose to be meek or something now?` No stones boy . what is your gig?

no my thread is about why did we stay ? the why did you leave thread is papjohns. I know why I left to much hate and suspicsion sp in the folks hearts to enjoy fellowship anymore that was my point when you all went after refiners. I get it I just wish you would ask him why on his greeting thread and keep this one as a why did we stay NOT LEAVE thread. it is all good lol . geez grease spot hhaa haa

ok guys have at it but I start very few threads here can you please oh never mind I know why I left clearly . I was serious thinking about this and would have enjoyed a little discussion but no .... geez

dmiller you said "have error and stay" I had always seen the differences in the way esp. the doctrine of sit and such I never considered it error and the fact grace was so heavily relied on as a excuse when people hurt one another erased any error of people. really I thought we had the hold on love and truth and none of such considerations would matter cause GOD was taking care of me and all of us. what do you mean when you say error?

I honestly thought my TC loved me and my family. till I was marked and realized how short lived that type of love was in real life. then when I went back I said to myself still cant believe this but you know it was the devil and well of course they are my real family . man I still think at times it was an odd ( for lack of a different word to describe) thing the relationships I had in the way, geez sometimes I thought if I met the very same idiots in real life I would NOT give them a second of my time and here I am lstening to them tell me what the bible really means to my life. what was up with that? maybe I bought the idea that were all so dam special and powerful for God and above being assh@les and worse .

Wafer Not I do not think your a dumb *** nor do I think anyone who got involved like I did is "damaged" or stupid or in any way shape or form less of a loved child of God. At first I did it cause I bought the package and wanted to sell it myself we all did I think it was a sales job and ignorance but after that when we knew this is a butch of problems or stress or just wrong why did we still stay then? shellon I do not blame you I know of more than one couple that even stayed married in great amount of crises and unhappiness because of the way and the same reasoning. or got married , or got divorced . It was a mess .

What truly frightens me about Heavens gate is they are the cult which claims to have successfully cloned humans and have one born and several on the way to be born this year . Asked for proof they never supply pictures or birth certificates . I still wonder tho and somehow do not doubt it possible. that frightens me.

Papajohn has a thread that asks why you left and I thought about this subject while reading his thread . My question is why did you stay ? I have heard some reasons like family still in and not wishing to divide the unit. I have heard some say because they feared for their life if they left. I am interested in your posts to help those who may still be struggling with this issue in their own life whether still in or not . I know I wondered about many issues and things when I took a decade between my involvement with TWI. I never truly became honest about what was happening and how I thought about it untill I saw it repeat itself in an offshoot group with completely different people. Almost twenty years later !!!! wow huh? It takes a long time to become honest with yourself I think when you realize the impact time spent in twi cost our life. I know exwafers who are still uncomfortable with themselves and how life unfolded itself concerning twi and how they left and why they stayed. Some still blame and deny and strugle for any peace with themselves their families and even God decades after any involvement. It is almost like they are still in the cult of it all with the self doubt and fear of making a wrong decision all over again with the guilt and fear still ruling life. I spoke with a leader still in recently and she is miserable they went out for 6 months as a disciple and have been in a major struggle to put their life back in order since returning . the lost home the lost jobs the money impact and just trying to keep it together after such a major upheaval in middle age ( for God???) . They are glad they went and did what they thought was Gods work for the ministry but struggle today for it. their children will not "stand" with twi not one of them and they have several , so even the family is often absolutly compromised, yet they stay. I feel nothing but pity for them . Because I hear an attitude of earning Gods special favor and power more than anyone eles , due to their suffering and commintment and I just do not buy the attitude at all. I find it ironic for a ministry that claimed to fight the religous attitude and preach the grace of God as all powerful, to me it appears rewards and works is the very reason so many are involved . Why did you stay?

thanks for your concern george Im feeling much better . do ya think it was a little over the top? do I care really ? so not to derail this thread if you look up a few posts you can read what my post to oakspear is about. cowgirl wow what a picture !!! lol