Hope R.

Oaks - you're right - it was 4/5 - I knew it had to be more than 45% - that CRS kicks in when it comes to remembering stuff about TWI! Let's see... if there were 500 people in this area, and 80% left - that would be 100 - which is absolutely correct when it comes to Tampa Bay. I remember when the Corpse were taken off their full time status, only those with branches or areas of 100 people stayed on Waypay. Paul G. - the BC here, was one of the only 2 or 3 BC's in the country who had that many people under him. And that was only because the BC who was in 1/2 of the area was reassigned and they combined the 2 areas together. Lucky for Paul - he got a few more more years of a free ride before the area dwindled down to about 60 and TWI told him to get a job. hmmmm - 60 people left out of 500 - and in less than 15 years... about 88% for this area. Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Hi ISTW - Good question, but one I don't think can be answered that simply. For instance, the branch here in Tampa Bay once had about 500 active participants in the early to mid 80's (that's all of the Tampa Bay area plus a few other smaller cities close by). That's a lot of people to keep track of just in one area. Grease Spot is a very small sampling of ex-Way followers. I've been in this area for a long time (since 1981), and stayed in TWI for longer than most(29 years). I didn't know all 500 people in the area, but have a good idea of what many people are doing about religion. Of the people I know and have kept track of, it's divided between the middle 3 of your 5 choices. Some have gone through all three of them! There's a couple of active off-shoots here, so naturally, many people leaned that way at first. When they saw that these were mostly TWI wannabes, they looked for a church. When they couldn't find one that taught exactly what they believed or one they felt comfortable in, they dropped everything. TWI went from about 45,000 - 50,000 active participants in the mid-80's to about 3000 - 3500 today. I think the majority left during the first 1986-1990 exodus. Even LCM admitted that they lost 45% of their leadership during the so-called "fog years". I think it was more. If you check out the Cortwright site's "Believer Links" page, you can read the list of ex-Way folks and what many of them are doing. Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

I remember thinking that there should be black dots for people who got divorced during the year. I know, I know, that's not nice... but hey... Once, I saw someone who had been married when she went in rez, but had since divorced. Her name tag had a different last name on it, but no dot I asked her if she'd gotten remarried. She looked at me with a bit of indignation and said "No... that's my maiden name." Like I was supposed to know that.... sheesh... She needed a black dot Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Interesting... On page number 9a it states This corporation DOES _ x_ DOES NOT ___ have members. I know VP used to say TWI had no members and that the only official members were the three trustees. Do you think that's what this refers to in this Financial Report as well? Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

IMO everyone's answers are full of holes. Big holes. Holes you can drive through. There are letters out there from the former trustees to people who were marked to be avoided, especially to the Corps circa the early 90's. We never received one because by the time we were booted, I think they knew enough not to put things like that in writing. (Wish I did have a letter. I'd use the frame my Corps diploma was in and hang it right up on the wall!) The evidence that Rosary knew about LCM's adultery was brought out in the first law suit. That's when she admits to knowing about it anyway. I'd guess most upper echelon leadership knew much more than they wanted to years before 1998. I haven't looked at the WayDale docs section in a while. Aren't there actual letters from LCM to the Corpse regarding the no debt non-policy? I'll have to give them a glance again. Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

I want MORE! Golly-gee-whiz.... I'm surprised the attornies on either side didn't ask how people were M&A'd. Was there a letter? Was it announced? And what about "probation"? How is that biblical? After all, Rosary explained that M&A was taken from the bible! Oh - and the debt thing - geez louise. One thing I can say about TWI's policies - they were smart to never put them in writing. They were just handed down verbally by intimidation. I wish I had LCM's teaching tape from about 10 - 12 years ago regarding M&A. I don't remember all of it, but I do remember thinking it was a bad thing he was promoting.

Wrestler - I sent you a Private Topic... Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Oaks - you may be right about that - can't remember. I think we were still considered Corpse when we were forced to take it so it might have cost us nothing - which was probably what it was worth! Dallas - we went to WIB there - cut out of most of the meetings one day to go to check out the downtown tourist shops. The Sixth Floor Museum alone made the trip worthwhile. If I recall correctly, the WIB and other spay-shull events were held on Easter weekend for a while. It was a much better choice, IMO. The air fares weren't blacked out and most people weren't insulting their families as much by not being with them on Easter Sunday vs. Thanksgiving. The only ACS I went to was one in our area. It was one weekend a month for either 3 or 4 months. We were lucky to live close by enough so we didn't have to stay at the KOA campgrounds they were held at and could commute. The thing I remember most is LCM's teaching about the Kenites - how they were descendants of Cain and how evil and possessed they were - born of the wrong seed and all that heavy debbil spurt cr@p. He made a very easily spotted error in that teaching because the Kenites couldn't have been Cain's descendants because of the flood - they were all wiped out!!! He then realized it after about an hour of teaching and looking at every verse the Kenites were mentioned in. He scrunched up his face and said something like: "...then there's the flood..." and realized he'd screwed it up! He simply waved it off by saying, "Well, they were still evil anyway!" And then quickly went on to the next topic. No explanations, no "oops, I was wrong!", not even a corrected teaching. Yeah, present truth revelation my foot! Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Doubting Thomas You missed the boat, bro. The only way you got to get the foundational WAP class for free was if you took it when it was released to the corpse and then PFAL grads. Since it's after that, it'll cost you. It was $50 - but that's when LCM was up on the TV a-hollerin and a-hollerin about homosexuals and church-going folk - right in session 1!!! Why, just hearing him rant and rave and spit was worth the $50 !!! But now, the remnant are teaching it live and in person so the spitting has been greatly reduced. Reminds me of the movie "The Ten Commandments" when Yul Brunner as the Pharoah has Moses' name and image removed from every building and statue ("let the name of Moses be stricken..."). It's sorta like what they did with Craig. He may not be mentioned, but his presence is still there in his classes and his books. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Tommy Strangelove - it ain't even worth $50! What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Tommy Strangelove - You are not, I repeat not an Advanced Class grad according to the mighty, all-knowing household of TWI. You have not taken LCM's WAP Advanced Class so therefore you do not have the PRESENT TRUTHsize>color> regarding the manifestations of the spirit, all 9 all the time prevailing word standing in the household on the bridge that crosses the Jordan. Get it???? (Well, I certainly don't)! Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Did you know that God has to be left-handed? Why? Because Jesus Christ is sitting on his right hand!! Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

I think many of us started out as VPW defenders. For me, it wasn't so much that I defended him, I just didn't want to believe the extent of his evil. It took about a year of being out to finally get it. Now I'm sorta like the person who has quit smoking ... you know, us recovered smokers are much more critical of smokers than those who never smoked! I may be overly-critical of VPW at this point in my life. To me, most of what he taught is suspect and anything good that he taught wasn't his own. I haven't found the balance yet, if there is one. This thread and the other one about VP vs. LCM are getting me mixed up... Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

How about Florida in February when y'all are freezing your heinies off up north???? We've got room!!! Everyone repeat after me: Columbus Day Weekend ... Columbus Day Weekend ... Columbus Day Weekend ... Columbus Day Weekend ... Columbus Day Weekend ... Columbus Day Weekend ...size> Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Dot wrote: I have often thought along those lines concerning my own Christian experience. Would I have been "called" by another group? church? When I got witnessed to in High School - I immediately witnessed to all my friends. One of them, Janet, was Jewish, as most of my home town was and still is. She was very angry at me for defecting from my religion. She was older than I was, graduated, and went away to college and was gone by the time I went in the Corps. Last year, I received a classmates email from Janet after having not heard from her in over 30 years. She was all filled with "praise God's" and "hallelujahs!" She told me she was born-again 15 years ago and she was so sorry she didn't listen to me when we were in High School. She is very involved with her church and is a very enthusiastic Christian. I'm very, very glad she didn't listen to me 30 years ago. Anyway - I think if being a Christian is a matter of predestination, then yes, somewhere, somehow, God would have made sure we heard the call - with or without TWI, PFAL or VPW! Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

He also said that we shouldn't use the word "Christian" because it originated as a derogatory term in the 1st C. Whether or not this is true, I don't know - always sounded made up to me. Shortly after he said that, I think he realized his book was called "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church" and sorta cooled off on that really stupid point. Guess it was cheaper than re-writing all of his and VP's works that had the word "Christian" in them! Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

*sigh* If VPW had been a priest, he would have been transferred to New Mexico. That's how the Catholic Church covered the sins of those corrupt priests - they moved them. TWI couldn't do that with either VPW or LCM - until the first law suit was filed and posted on Waydale! VPW was covered for not just by Geer (although, IMO, he was probably one of VP's chief pimps and drambuie pourers). VPW was covered for by, I would guess, 50 - 100 people who knew what was going on - and I'm not talking about the women who he abused - I'm talking about the people who knew about it and never took part in any of it. Heck - I knew about it - well, I'd heard about it from one person shortly after I graduated from the Corps. But I was told by the then Grand Poobah trunk of the USA worldwide outreach coordinator dude to NOT believe or trust this wonderful woman who was a dear friend. He was able to convince me that this woman was possessed by all sorts of debbil spurts. Cover-cover-cover. I'm getting off topic, sorry Linda. Maybe PFAL did enlighten me in some ways. I wasn't a Christian before I took the class and don't consider myself a very good one now, if at all! But I became one for a while and if what TWI taught really is true, then I've got a guaranteed place in heaven! I'm glad I had fun and nothing bad happened to me in those early years - I guess I was lucky. My heart goes out to those of you who were abused. I admire your strength and honesty. I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make it all go away... Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Laurie (Strange Things Happen) Dickey Lee Last night at the dance I met Laurie So lovely and warm An angel of a girl Last night I fell in love with Laurie Strange things happen in this world As I walked her home she said it was her birthday I pulled her close and said, "Will I see you anymore?" And suddenly she asked for my sweater And said that she was very very cold. I kissed her goodnight at her door and started home Then thought about my sweater And went right back instead. I knocked at her door And a man appeared I told him why I'd come And he said, "You're wrong, son You weren't with my daughter How can you be so cruel to come to me this way? My Laurie left this world on her birthday She died a year ago today." A strange force drew me to the graveyard I stood in the dark I saw the shadows wave And then I looked and I saw my sweater Lying there upon her grave Strange things happen in this world.

Merry & Pippin are cousins, aren't they? They didn't seem as "close" as Sam & Frodo did. Besides, Frodo is "pretty"... those hyper-thyroid eyes and all. Personally, I'd lip lock with Aragorn any day... don't tell hubby! Rafael - you really should read the books! Take a week's vacation on the Beach, put on some sunblock and let LOTR take you away! They could have broken up "The Scouring of the Shire" somehow. Showed Saurman & Wormtongue doing their dirty work. Cut to the other stuff that was in the film, and gone back BEFORE the Sam marries Rosie scene and taken care of it. There are ways precioussssssss..... Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

This is a commercial interruption... GREASE SPOT CAFE has a main site where much of this information, links to other articles, old Waydale documents and various editorials are posted. (click here for the Grease Spot Cafe Main Page) Don't forget it's there! And you "newbies" - if you haven't checked it out - spend a few hours perusing the site. It will blow your mind and open your eyes (though not necessarily in that order!). We now return to our regularly scheduled thread... pardon the interruption! xoxoxox Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

I am going to post this again and again and again... until people take off their rose-colored glasses and see things clearly... Why It's Not an Affair Rev. Patricia L. Liberty Rev. Liberty is the Executive Director of Associates in Education and Prevention in Pastoral Practice, PO Box 63, 44 Main Street, North Kingstown, RI 02852 Tel # 401-295-0698 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The issue of sexual contact between clergy and congregants is complex. Whenever a minister is exposed for such behavior the aftermath is traumatic for everyone involved. Churches feel betrayed, victims/survivors are marginalized and misunderstood and the families of all involved suffer greatly. This article is intended as an informational and educational forum to increase understanding about sexual contact between clergy and congregants. Oftentimes sexual contact between clergy and congregants is dismissed as an "affair" between "consenting adults". This is a misnomer for several reasons. First, the relationship between a clergy person and his/her congregants is professional in nature. That means that clergy have a responsibility to use the special knowledge, skills and gifts of their call for the benefit of those they serve namely their congregants. It also means that clergy have a responsibility to establish healthy professional relationships. Because clergy carry moral and spiritual authority, as well as professional power it is ALWAYS their responsibility to maintain an appropriate professional boundary. In practical terms this translates into clergy not pursuing or initiating sexual relationships with congregants (regardless of marital status of either party) and not responding to the sexual advances of congregants who may be interested in a relationship with their pastor. It also means that clergy will not engage in sexualized behavior with congregants. Sexualized behavior includes jokes, inappropriate touching, pornography, flirting, inappropriate gift giving, etc. Since the ministerial relationship is professional in nature, it is inappropriate to call a sexual encounter an affair. Affair is a term used to describe a sexual liaison between peers, or equals. In addition, the term affair focuses attention on the sexual nature of the behavior rather than the professional violation. It also places equal responsibility for the behavior on the congregant. Since clergy have a responsibility to set and maintain appropriate boundaries, those who are violated by clergy's inappropriate sexual behavior are not to be blamed even if they initiated the contact. This is a difficult concept for many people to grasp. We want to blame the congregant (usually but not always a woman) for the sexually inappropriate behavior of the minister (usually but not always a man). As tempting as this may be, it is wrong because it is always the responsibility of the minister to maintain the integrity of the ministerial relationship. The temptation to blame the congregant is also a reflection of the difficulty people have believing that a person who carries moral and spiritual authority, who is respected and trusted, can also be guilty of misusing the power and authority of the office. That denial and confusion causes tremendous damage to victims who need understanding and support as well as to churches that need clear, ethical, theological and faith based intervention to understand their betrayal. Blaming the congregant also means a failure to call the abusing pastor to genuine accountability. The focus needs to remain on the violation of the ministerial relationship. The term "consenting adults" also reflects a misunderstanding of sexual behavior between clergy and congregants. It is assumed that because two people are adults that there is consent. In reality, consent is far more complex. In order for two people to give authentic consent to sexual activity there must be equal power. Clergy have more power because of the moral and spiritual authority of the office of pastor. In addition, education, community respect and public image add to the imbalance of power between a clergy person and a congregant. Finally clergy may have the additional power of psychological resources, especially when a congregant seeks pastoral care in the midst of personal or spiritual crisis, life change, illness or death of a loved one. This precludes the possibility of meaningful consent between a congregant and their pastor. In our work with survivors of clergy abuse we often ask the question, "Would this have happened if he/she was your neighbor and not your pastor." Overwhelmingly the answer is "no". The witness of survivors underscores the truth that the clergy role carries with it a power and authority that make meaningful consent impossible. When speaking of sexual contact between clergy and congregants, the term professional misconduct or sexual exploitation is more accurate. It keeps the emphasis on the professional relationship and the exploitative nature of sexual behavior rather than placing blame on the victim/survivor. "An affair between consenting adults" is never an appropriate term to use when describing sexual contact between a minister and congregant. Accurate naming of the behavior is an important step to reshaping our thinking about this troubling reality in the church, how we name it reveals our belief about it. Holding clergy accountable with compassion and purpose and providing healing resources to churches and survivors is dependent on an accurate starting point. Only when we name the behavior accurately can we hope to have a healing outcome for all involved. Copyright © 2000 Patricia Liberty. here's the link on the Main Page of GS "Why It's NOT an Affair" Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. I added the bold stuff - the whole article should be that way... and in capitol letters... in red... UNDERLINEDcolor>size> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Oaks - I'm not one of the minority, but I will try to answer your question as I see it... VPW was "our father in the Word". It is much easier to deny that your "father" committed incest with any of his children than it is to accept it. LCM is our generation. He didn't have the "father" tag to hang anyone up. And then, there's the internet, which exposed him to hundreds, if not thousands of people in one blow. With VP, if anyone knew about it, they didn't speak up,for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed here before. When it finally started coming to light, it was mostly in 2nd or 3rd hand stories. I know when I heard about it I didn't want to think of a 60+ year old VP sexually abusing the young, beautiful women I knew. That was gross. So if people still want to hold him in high esteem - they can make a lot of excuses for their "father", like "he's dead and he can't answer for himself" or "how do you know these woman aren't lying?" Craig was a jerk - anyone who stuck around TWI for as long as we did knew it. It was no surprise when the first law suit came out. It figured. I think VP being the original "Daddy MOG" makes his molestation of young women harder for a lot of people to accept - so they are more likely to excuse it rather than believe it. Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

Dot, I didn't know potatos had balls.... with apologies, Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

5 pages and 2 1/2 days later and no reply from Mike???? Makes me go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm". Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

I FINALLY saw the movie last night (Christmas kinda got in the way). I immediately came home and skimmed thru ROTK because I didn't recall the dead guys helping win the battle in Minas Tirith. They didn't. They helped in other ways - but they didn't zip around the city like the film depicted. I was very disappointed when I read that Peter Jackson didn't even think about filming "The Scouring of the Shire" because he never liked that chapter in the book (that was in Newsweek in late November)! Saurman will be dealt with in the extended DVD version, but without the chapter that was mentioned above, it will obviously be something the screenwriters saw fit to weave into the plot. They also don't mention that Merry & Pippin have grown considerably taller from drinking Treebeard's water! Oh - they also left out the fact that the reason Dethanor goes nuts is because he also has a palintir that he's been peering into for a while and Sauron has made him go mad. The palintir Pippin finds is the one that was thrown out of Isingard by Wormtongue in an attempt to hit Gandalf. Funny - I hadn't read the information in the appendices in a long time until last night. I'd forgotten that Sam goes off after Rosie dies. Lotsa things - but I still thought it was fabulous. And Andy Serkis deserves some kind of award for Gollum, as does Sean Astin, who was more of a hero than Frodo, IMO. RAFE - you never read the books??? Bro - dig in! Oh - someone told me that Jackson was going to make "The Hobbit" - anyone know if it's true? Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Did any of you find the movie a bit gay? (not that there's anything wrong with that!) What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>

OOOOOO - I love it Steve! Lemme try... LOOKEE - that's FUNNNNN!!!!face>color>size> Hope R. color>size>face> What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>