BecomingMe

Yeah, my traumatized a$$ wants to come "home"...how many of you got these?!

On the remnant discussion, something I think is relevant: I can't comment on Biblical significance or anything like that. But I will tell you LCM is practiced at constant rationalization. When he left / was kicked out / whatever you want to call it, I watched him rationalize his situation over and over and over again. It made me look at what he taught differently: if he has this mindset of rationalization, how much of what he taught that he thought was Godly really came from his using rationalization to make himself feel better? The BIG one (for me) is abortion: if he needed women to get abortions to hide his infidelity, how could he make it Godly? By rationalizing it Biblically. Adultery? When it's printed that way in the King James, it should be more "accurately" translated "idolatry." It goes on and on. How much of his doctrine is more about his lack of mental health than it is about genuine inspiration? My guess is: a LOT. So, as to the remnant, it's my thought that it's just another rationalization for his behavior (marking and avoiding so many people) and for the situation (people leaving TWI in droves in the late 80s). It's how he dealt with the cognitive dissonance and the pain of so many people leaving. Thoughts?

I believe his "new" group has "remnant" in the name. It's one of his justifications for his actions...he's really really really good at rationalizing. He was a trainer at Bally's for a little while a couple years after he left. He worked at UPS slinging boxes for about 10 years, and was a cart boy at Home Depot for a couple years too.

chockfull, hi! Thanks for the reply :D If we saw each other in Founder's Hall and it was about 2002, I was definitely wanting to escape and had no idea how! I love your weird question! It's very insightful...I have some horrible memories about pets...we had outdoor cats that we'd feed that lived in the Way Woods. And, as cats do when they roam free, they'd get into sticky situations and not come back. One got stepped on by a clergy guy staying in one of the guest rooms attached to the house, and she died. I was little...so why do I know this detail about how she died!? Another time, one of the cats had kittens, and the maintenance guy set up a box where we fed them (I'm sure he was directed to) and shot them when they went into the box...I happened upon the box and freaked out (understandably). I must have been about 5. :( We also had a dog for several years that Chris Geer gave us. Chocolate brown German Shorthair named Zula. She was the sweetest thing. She was super anxious - she'd chew the logs on the wall at night. Dad hated her. He never was much of a pet person, but after the whole Passing of the Patriarch thing...he just kind of stayed away from her. Eventually she lived out her days in a kennel. I remember her just disappearing one day and that was that. So, not really a "normal" relationship to pets in my house.

Stayed Too Long, thank you for writing this. I can only imagine the trauma of M&A. It had to be intense. As for me, my mental health has improved immensely over the last year or two. I have some tough stuff going on in my life at the moment, and tonight a friend asked me, "But is your mental health OK?" And I could honestly say, "Yes." That felt really good. I'm so grateful to be OK.

Thanks for the kind words, Twinky. To answer your questions above -- yes, I still visit mom there, and it's surreal to go there. I'm pretty much fine if we keep to ourselves. A few years ago, I went briefly into the OSC when people were there picking up meals. Familiar faces....people started saying hi and bless you and love you...and I had a panic attack and had to get out of there asap. I think the hardest part with my dad is that he's my dad -- what I mean by that is that I have some father-daughter memories that are pretty sweet; I have the father-daughter biological attachment and emotional attachment. I haven't yet been able to leave him completely behind because, in spite of everything, I love him. He's my dad. Anyway, thanks for your understanding and kindness. I value them quite a lot. <3

YES, cman!!!!! I totally agree. And when I thought I had worked out most of the "doctrinal" stuff, there was a whole layer of psychological bull$!*% left along with a thick layer of trauma reactions. I'm trying to come to peace with the idea that I may never be done.

Awww, Rocky....although I didn't think of how unfortunate the initials would be....

Oldiesman, ask away. I'm curious what people want to know, what it will jog in my memory. PM or here is fine.

WordWolf, I appreciate it very much. And Rocky, you've made that so clear by your compassion and kindness. :)

Stayed Too Long, I do understand your skepticism, and I’m grateful to Rocky for speaking up on my behalf. I welcome private messages from anyone who is still skeptical. You asked why I’ve waited so long to speak up. For years, I was so afraid to. Dad’s perspective on the internet and sites like Greasespot being fiery darts lodged itself in my brain and was hard to fight for awhile. After that, I was afraid news of my writing here would get back to my mom, with whom I still have a relationship I would like to maintain. Another factor you may not have considered is that this is my family being written about, so it feels pretty personal. But the basic answer here is trauma. I’ve grappled with one traumatic memory after another, one trauma reaction after another. So it’s taken me a minute to be ready to show up.

There's a lot to respond to here, and I probably will repeat others / miss stuff... One thought that comes up from several is basically the idea that he should be respected, or that he helped some people, or that he wasn't all "that" bad. I definitely respect each individual's personal experiences and opinions. AND his overall presence in the world, in my opinion, has been a net negative. He was a victim of VPW's, yes. And he was also a villain/perpetrator/predator to many, many others. I know this is harsh, and I hope I don’t offend anyone too deeply, but he doesn’t deserve anyone’s admiration or respect. He was/is a cult leader that took advantage of people over and over again. Did he do some good? Yes. But it’s overshadowed by the — at best — delusional decisions he made about people’s lives, livelihoods, families, social lives, personal wellbeing, their bodies, their choices…the list goes on and on. I think of all the points here this is the hot-button one for me, so my personal experience perhaps clouds my judgement. But I also think my personal experience informs my judgement here in a way others don’t have access to — meaning, I know what kind of a person he was/is. WordWolf, you mentioned that those listening to him now are probably over 50 and are responsible for their own thoughts and beliefs. Thank you for that perspective; you’re right, I think (hope?), although I do think brainwashing is real and more powerful than popular opinion sees it as. Another question that comes up is whether he really believes his stuff or is just a con man. He believes it wholeheartedly. Always has, and I think always will. I think that in itself is a “reason” he continues on with teaching. He believes it’s God’s will.

Hi, friends! Sorry I'm late to the party. I step in and out of cult world, because it's just too heavy sometimes. I'm Craig's oldest kid and wanted to jump on this thread to help out if I can... Annio, I think the website you're writing about is at biblebookprofiler.com. That's not him, though. So the things written about depression and anxiety and suicidal thoughts -- which I can't imagine him ever admitting to -- and the personality tests are not him. It's some other guy that happens to have posted dad's stuff on his site. Dad is actually doing these "teachings" currently, and most (if not all?) of his followers are ex-Way people. This frustrates me to no end. How many people will he hurt and mislead in his lifetime? As to the question of his mental health and where he went astray -- out of respect and love for my grandmother, who is still living, I won't give details here. But parts of his childhood were intensely traumatic. This might sound odd, but, as far as I can have compassion for him, I believe he was born a gentle soul and is rather fragile. Hence all the bluster and anger and defensiveness (and face meltings). I don't write this to excuse his behavior, but I find that understanding him helps me, at least. He was primed to need a daddy figure, and he got one in Wierwille. He has seen a counselor. Briefly, in 2000, maybe for about a year. I also saw this counselor, and he helped me immensely in a time of deep depression. I think he was hardly able to scratch the surface with dad. Dad attended out of obligation at the time. What else...? If you have questions, I'll answer them if I can <3

Well, the first 12 minutes hit the nail on the head. Sheesh. Thanks for posting, Rocky. I’m gonna do my best to get thru it all.

DWBH, what can I say? Thank you SO much for the love and your comments. I can’t quite find the words to tell you all how much I appreciate being welcome here. To answer a couple comments - I have 4 therapists and am on a battery of meds. I’ve been doing this latest round of hard work with said therapists for a year and a half. I think what has discouraged me is how deep the injuries go into my subconscious mind. But I am and will continue working. Being ME here is a big step I’ve wanted to take for years. Thanks again for the comfort <3

Well, I only feel comfortable speaking for myself, and I’m not so great. Working on it, though. I have a life that is full and that I’m really grateful for - two little girls, a husband (also a former Way kid), a career that I love in education. Now if I can work out really detaching the old way programming from my head, I’ll be all right...

Hey, all. It’s been awhile since I’ve stepped into the diner. I’m outing myself today because it’s too painful to keep my silence anymore, and I’m struggling right now. My name is Leah - I’m LCM’s oldest child. I don’t know what to do next...I feel like I need to speak, but I don’t know what to say. I’m just so tired of hurting. Penworthy, it’s lovely to “see” you here. I so appreciate your compassion...

Yes, he is.

Responding to WordWolf (sorry, i don’t have the “quote” thing down yet) - I do think there’s a style for everyone - meaning, he did appeal to a group of people, although much smaller than vp did. I’m not saying I disagree with your analysis; that’s all true, but a lot of people liked him and believed in him (misguidedly). Cult leaders are able to keep a certain number of followers, even if small, for a reason. But, to answer your question, it’s old wayfers with no group. Just listening to him specifically. And I don’t think he identifies with vp so much anymore. I think in his mind, he moved past vp in the 90s because I don’t remember him talking about vp much. I would guess he’s never stopped thinking of himself as THE man of God. WordWolf, just an observation, for what it’s worth: your post seems angry. LCM doing “phone hookups” upsets me because of all the people he’s messed up. Do I detect a similar feeling from you?

I hear from a reliable source that he’s doing phone hookups now. Which really ....es me off. I think this is evidence that the leopard hasn’t changed his spots. Still a predator. But when has mental illness ever fixed itself? Given his views on counseling (we don’t have to pay for someone to help us when the way has all the answers!), I doubt he’s sought out help.

AOS both terrified and fascinated me as a child. I saw it live as a young kid and then me and my way friends were obsessed with learning the choreography - of the seed of the serpent. She fascinated us the most. Very healthy. Ugh.

Ohmygod watching the one video on YouTube that I can find from athletes...I don’t even have the words. https://www.chron.com/entertainment/arts-theater/article/Art-Daybook-Inside-the-memory-of-a-cult-13066647.php This is a review of the installation. Sounds like he captured the confusion and darkness of cult life (sorry if someone else already posted this).

Wow, you all are wonderful! I love that I’m engaging with people who understand!! I do have several people in my life that came out of the way, but many of you have a different perspective, which I find valuable. I’m so grateful for the level of insight and kindness you all share. I really appreciate all the book recommendations - I will add them to my list :-) When I was first half-in, half-out and trying to figure out what to do, Greasespot was so helpful, especially the documents that came directly from the way. By that time, I understood that I wanted to be part of things that practiced compassion and kindness; I came to see those qualities as moral. Reading LCM’s letters, etc, I realized how little compassion he practiced (yes, understatement of the century). It was a major help in my decision. So, thank you all for engaging with me, and thanks for keeping this cafe up and running! I’ll keep ramblin’ with you!

Ok, here goes. I grew up mostly at HQ - not in the frying pan; in the fire. The standards for children there were ridiculous. Basically, be perfect. Listen, remember, obey. Be a good example. Don’t be a stumbling block. Dress appropriately. Speak respectfully. Don’t be angry. Don’t be sad, be thankful. I watched some kids, especially as teenagers, become angry and rebellious. Others, like me, became as compliant and people-pleasing as a person could possibly be. I was complimented often on my “meekness.” In childhood, this meant a rather controlled atmosphere. As a teenager, it was absolutely suffocating. I’m now well into middle age, and I find that I have very little sense of self. The mental work I’m doing now is mostly about separating my “cult self” from my “authentic self” (as Steven Hassan labels it in Combatting Cult Mind Control) - I also think of it as new man vs. old man with the new man being false behaviors smothering my real personality. I’ve always thought I had pretty good self esteem. I realize now I feel fine about my cult self - being disciplined, keeping things clean, being a high achiever, serving others to the detriment of self. I have a deep self-loathing for that hidden authentic self that isn’t “perfect” - is spontaneous, joyful, sexual, angry, free, artistic, childlike, grieving. It’s taken months of counseling, thinking, reading, and agonizing just to realize this. Still working on how to let it out. Another part of growing up that still affects me is hyper-vigilance about “danger.” The idea that the devil was out to get us; and if you are “out of alignment and harmony” you’ll be outside of God’ protection; and we were taught that people we knew had DIED because they didn’t follow their schedules or didn’t follow their leadership’s advice; this adds up to a brain trained to be alert to the smallest inconsistencies in the environment (PTSD). Then put in the strong imagery of Athletes of the Spirit. My friends and I were obsessed with it. We learned the seed of the serpent dance and would argue over who got to be her and which devil spirits we got to be. That imagery was so strong for our young minds. Taking the advanced class made it even more vivid and more urgent. Then, if you were at HQ in the 90s, you remember lunch time. LCM would talk for hours every week sometimes, lecturing about the things God was “showing him” or about how we all needed to be so vigilant or about people - telling their personal lives and struggles to everyone and talking about how the “adversary” had gotten into their lives and how devil spirits were infiltrating their minds. Is it any wonder I was terrified to drink? To try drugs? That has seemed like a good thing to me for a long time, but I now realize I was so constrained by fear that the mere idea of losing control sends me into a near panic. It wasn’t good. And along with all that came the underlying belief that if I wasn’t all those “good” things - a strong disciple, believing positively, behaving according to the Word, doing what my spiritual overseers told me to do, blah blah blah - I wouldn’t be loved. Discipline of children was so strongly emphasized (and LCM criticized parents so heavily) that as a child, I subconsciously picked up that I wasn’t good enough and wasn’t lovable if I wasn’t right in line. Now, as a parent, I really do think at least my mother loved me unconditionally, and she told me that when I left the way. I have a lot of family left in the way. I stay anonymous because of it. Still afraid of losing their love over my “disobedience.” I guess posting here is one way for me to push back and not allow myself to be silenced, even if I’m not fully out there. Baby steps. In a lot of ways I was lucky. I went to college instead of going Wow or Way Disciple right away. I of course wanted to go in the corps - because how else were you really somebody? - but was lucky enough to get through college and realize I didn’t want to do that. I spent my 20s wading through all the doctrines I tried so hard to keep believing in, but I just couldn’t get them to make sense with real life. I rejected them. And didn’t realize the mess all this has made of my psyche. I was a true believer. I did the things you were supposed to do. I toed the line. I put my heart and soul into it. And all I got was this broken spirit.

Thanks, everyone, for the welcome. I find that through these difficulties, others’ compassion is pure gold. I love that several of you are here to help the rest of us - thank you! Taxidev and Waysider, I would say I’m atheist when I’m angry and agnostic when I’m calm. It’s wonderful that so many perspectives are represented here. That’s how we learn, right? I’m finding lately that some of the things I still struggle with have so much to do with cult practices - “us vs. them” being one of them. It seems to me that served the purpose of keeping people trapped. At the same time, I do believe the people that promoted these ideas - the leaders of the 90s, at least, were true believers. I’ve run into people who assume/believe they all had nefarious intentions, but in knowing some of them, they believed the, um, stuff they were spreading. Doesn’t really make me any less angry, but...perhaps slightly more compassionate. T-Bone, I’ve read Undertow and really loved it. I think Penworks was both direct and compassionate in her telling, and I so appreciated that. Pretty much every person who has been a major influence in my early life is or was in twi. There’s so much of the love I’ve experienced mixed in with basically abuse and violation, and that’s incredibly difficult to separate. Anyway, I tend to ramble, so, thank you all for welcoming me. :-)