Taxidev

So far, all the teachings I've listed to have actually been teachings geared toward living free, living God's love, living God's power, what being like minded actually means... There are 2 topics scheduled for this evening: "love as our motivation" and "genuine giving". If these are any different I'll let you know. That does cause me to wonder about them. I've found quite a few contradictions in what VPW propounded, and I was never close to him, never on staff, never in the way corps. I just read the books. And no one I asked - not that there were that many - could clearly explain these things to me. And, I'm sorry to say, there are a couple names on that letter of people I had asked.

Yes, and they did actually realize that. No revival, no restoration. I wonder if they are going to change the group name...

I'm not defending them, or saying they are wonderful, but still to this day they have not asked for money. In fact, they recently reiterated that we should be giving to local people in need - that's local to us as individuals - and not to the R&R group. Apparently, they all have regular jobs now.

This was the thinking of the Pharisees, and Jesus Christ confronted them. They added so many rules to the Mosaic laws, rules they wanted others to adhere to, but not themselves. I'm not bashing other Christians, I'm criticizing the Roman Church leaders. I've met many wonderful Catholics, including priests, that have shown they have very loving hearts for people.

The requirements for priesthood is in 1 Timothy 3. But I guess they haven't read that.

Interestingly, the Prophets isn't the Mosaic laws - they cover the laws of life, which don't begin and end with the old testament. Proverbs, also, covers the laws of life, and there quite a few verses in their regarding love.

My apologies - I was writing sexual promiscuity but thinking sexual deviance, specifically sexual encounters with their dads' wives. But, considering further on this point, I guess there is all sorts of it going on in various parts of the world. I just have no idea if it's happening within Christian groups. I certainly hope it wouldn't.

I was recently having a discussion about this very thing with my fellowship "coordinator" (I use this term loosely because we aren't structured at all like TWI fellowships - I just don't know a better way to refer to him). The head of the church is Christ, not a living person on earth. And while Paul gives us much to learn from, he isn't the head, he is part of the body, albeit a very knowledgeable part. I believe you are correct in that Paul's epistles were specifically written for certain groups. We can see that probably most clearly in Corinthians when he's confronting them on sexual promiscuity. We, today - presumably - aren't doing those things, but we can still learn from that confrontation. So it's definitely FOR our learning.

When I was in 7th grade, I beat up a classmate that was blatantly gay. My reasoning: it repulsed me. But I was 12 years old. I gradually toned it down to just ridiculing them, but as I grew up so did my understanding of people, and my end to being a bully. Before even graduating high school I never even hinted my dislike of their tendencies; I understood we all had flaws. Like Rocky said, we are all human. I guess some people just never grow up in certain areas.

This one it good.

Exactly!

I believe the most important verse for TWI was in the law, Leviticus I think, where it talks about causing a pregnant woman to lose her unborn child. In the law, murder was punishable by death, but this was only punishable by a fine. But what they seemed to have missed was, this loss of child was an accident, not on purpose. So it was an accidental death, not murder.

Incorruptible: I like Thayer's definition - "not liable to decay, imperishable" Strong and Bullinger are in agreement, for the most part. Anyone else agree?

Would you like a copy of Dan's 114 page paper on that? And maybe JLynne's 13 page rebuttal of Dan?

I remember the first time I watched this video in my fellowship, the branch coordinator thought it was so magnificent. The version I watched had Don Weirwille narrating at the front or back - can't remember which - describing God and His magnificence. That narration was fantastic! The rest of the video seemed like just so much nonsense to me, I really didn't understand why it was receiving so much admiration. I just chalked it up to my being so new, but now I know my perspective was correct.

This is very interesting. I just looked at Strong and Thayer after finding this word used 4 times in the epistles. All 4 times it is translated dispensation. But both Strong and Thayer hold a type of managerial bent on their definitions, definitely along the lines of what you say here. And, that word is also translated stewardship 3 times in Luke, and steward 3 times in Luke and Titus. So administration, rather than being a period of time, is more of a handling and overseeing. In fact, Eph 3:2 makes it pretty clear that it is an oversight, a handling. Good call, WordWolf!

It's probably unavoidable, but then, I'm not trying to avoid it. It just seemed like a viable concept.

No, John's rebuttal is MUCH shorter, 13 pages. I haven't read it yet, but you are welcome to. John_Lynn_Response_to_Continue_in_Faith_Theology.pdf

Rico and many others were kept hidden while Craig was in power. Shortly after he stepped down, Rico did a Sunday teaching. My gut reaction was, 'where was this guy all this time?!?!' because he was a better teacher than Craig. Then many others started teaching, so many that I was flabbergasted by how many were kept in a closet by the egotist.

Well, it looks like yet another offshoot will be coming soon. I just got wind of it today, no details yet.

The entire discussion thread? Or his rebuttal to Dan?

Yes, they called it the grace administration, and it's the 5th one. I could see definite changes along the way in the bible, like when the law started, and then was ended by Jesus' death and resurrection. But I didn't follow the 7 administrations. Jesus was living under the law, so how did that become another administration? So many things TWI taught didn't actually make sense. This is the first time I'm hearing this concept referred to as "dispensationalism" but, apparently, I did learn the concept.

Not at all. Until yesterday, I hadn't even heard of dispensationalism. And I most certainly never considered the impact of focusing on the epistles over all else. And I had already learned that ALL scripture is for our learning, yet I had missed this important point. Yes, it's definitely the ever present Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, that makes the difference in our lives, not a dead man named Paul. Great as he was, he certainly wasn't the Christ. My understanding of what VPW proclaimed about being the greatest teacher since Paul was that he couldn't compare himself to Jesus. Silly me, I inferred that - he certainly never said it that I know of. And I did watch a couple of JAL's videos. I couldn't watch more because it felt like I was in a TWI class. You have been incredibly instrumental in my eyes opening wider regarding not only the impact TWI has had on my view of the bible, but also the flaws in that view. Keep it coming, brother!

Oh, I already know that. I've read several of his first-hand accounts. At first I was dumbfounded, then furious, and then I felt really heartbroken for all those that lived through that insanity. All I ever did was go to a local fellowship and the classes, and I did the way disciple program once. So locally I really didn't see much of the manipulation, although I did become aware of an uneasiness in my gut that I couldn't figure out. That was three years ago, and at that point I stopped inviting people to my fellowship, and gradually reduced my participation in the branch and fellowship activities. Now I have nothing to do with TWI.

I think you may have missed my comment regarding my disappointment with R&R, and it was based primarily on what you have shared, along with two others. I don't support them, I'm waiting to see them slip in their own muck. As for Dan, as I had stated prior, I was already looking into this very topic on my own. I don't actually support him, and was pretty surprised that he's already asking for money to help support his web site - they cost $10/month for a good hosting package, and Wordpress is free! Shouldn't be much of a strain on his pocket if he really wants to get a message out. But I am still reading his long-winded paper. So far, he has been very analytical, comparing the two views on salvation. The one thing I can say about that paper at this point is this: it doesn't seem to be plagiarized!