Taxidev

That's an interesting point. I do know why they started as a group in the first place, but I haven't heard the reasoning behind keeping this group together. I follow them, and all I see them doing is teaching on Sundays, and then they are all doing their thing in their respective areas. They do have a big gathering each year, typically in Florida, for a weekend of... I haven't been to one of them, so I can only guess - teachings. I don't know if there is a central theme either. What I have seen very clearly is their adherence to VPW's teachings, and they have much admiration for him. It leads me to wonder if any of them actually were aware of the things going on with VPW, many of which DWBH has shared here. I can't believe they could have known about that and still think so highly of him.

I believe they all are working secular jobs.

No, and I didn't say it was. I said there's a contact page, and a list of teachers.

Do you mean the list of teachers? No, it's just names.

This group was started by a dozen or so former way corps who brought up a list of grievances to the current BOD of TWI. It reminded me of the 95 theses from Martin Luther, but only about 10 to 15 list items. After trying to have a group meeting with all these folks and the BOD, they were all deemed "mark and avoid" by the BOD, and told flatly they are out. So they started their own loose ministry - it began on facebook, which they still have, and published their web site. Essentially, they just teach. They are scattered around the US, and do their thing locally, and they have a Sunday night phone call teaching, which they record and post on their web site. Quite a number of the teachings were very good. Eventually others from the way corps left TWI and attached themselves to this group, and even more were asked to leave TWI, so they also have gravitated to R&R, as they are commonly referred to.

I was learning the piano from 17 yrs old. While I can see a naturally talented person being able to learn on their own, for most of us that can be very challenging. A friend of mine was able to play songs simply by listening to them first, but he couldn't read sheet music, and never learned. To listen to him play, one would never guess that he is self-taught nor would they realize he can't read music. So, while he did learn how to play, he didn't actually learn the entire art. I had lessons for one full year. I was taught how to read the music, I was taught how to hold my hands, I was taught proper fingering of the keys, and I was taught proper posture. All four of these are vital to learn how to properly play piano. Once I had those, I purchased a book of sheet music of songs I knew very well so I could hear if I made a mistake, and a book of music theory, and continued learning on my own. But had I not had that year to learn the basics I seriously doubt I could have done it on my own. I hope that helps.

That would say a lot, but there isn't one. If there was before May 2017 I wouldn't know.

I just logged in to check, and there is no donate button, there is no donate menu option, there is nothing about money anywhere. It's just a listing of the recorded teachings, a listing of the teachers, and a contact page that is nothing more than a contact page. That's it.

You are correct. And that is exactly what happened - people wanted to give. But the R&R group responded, in no uncertain terms, that people were NOT to give to them. I know, unexpected. The people had to find other places to give, and other people to serve. I've been watching them since May 2017 and they haven't modified this position.

They still haven't done this.

I was wondering about this just recently - who's literal translation is it? VPW's?

Thank you. That's been my understanding of it for years. But the wayers just kept on parroting back what VPW propounded, without even thinking about it.

If that were true, then no one would ever leave any cult, and there have actually been news stories of people escaping cults. So, you are incorrect.

You can find her on facebook, in case you're still looking.

I don't know what bible they are using to justify this, but mine says this: "Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Nowhere in that verse does it say "unless they aren't part of the way ministry". They have broken apart a "one flesh" union where they had no authority to do that. If that's not evil I don't know what is.

I'm inclined to agree, and even take it a bit further, in that she didn't just listen to that other source, but grabbed it by the baton and ran with it, in direct opposition to what God had instructed, and stated it pretty clearly, I'd say. So, yes, her problem was that she considered it, but that first sin was in going directly against God's instructions.

Wow, Mark, this is such a subtle deception that I succumbed to. I didn't even ponder it until this very moment. Nowhere in the bible does it say we take his place - I just checked - but I went along with this because of this verse: Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. What a stretch from praying on behalf of Christ to taking his place! None of us could do that, even if we are doing those greater works than he did. The most we can be is part of the body. WOW!!! Thank you so, so much.

These examples are exactly what wordwolf described as not contributing. They are lacking the supporting argument that you are pretty well known for, I believe as T-Bone indicated. So, to repeat the initial point over and over doesn't necessarily mean the supporting argument will be the same. That will depend on the specific topic. I have to admit, it was initially difficult for me to read your unbeliever comments, because I haven't had biblical discussions with unbelievers in over 40 years. But eventually I found it refreshing. Not that I started agreeing with you, but I had to acknowledge your perspective as viable, at least to a degree. And I don't remember seeing such curt answers. So, yes, I completely agree with T-Bone, and partially agree with wordwolf. So, please, disagree, but share the supporting arguments along the way.

His words absolutely apply to us, except where he was confronting the Israelis about keeping the law. Probably the most relevant thing he said that completely applies to us, was when he boiled down the law to two commandments - love God above all else, and love our neighbor like ourselves. Following those two principles is what the love of Christ is all about, what walking in love is all about. By doing those two things, we fulfill the law in everything we do without concerning ourselves with the letter of the law. The main difference for us is that we are already forgiven for when we fall short, whereas Israel had to keep having those yearly sacrifices. In almost everything Jesus taught, he was showing the underlying meaning of all those laws and holy days. That underlying meaning is what is completely relevant to us today. So, Twinky, good question and good call!

I received this same email from John. When I read it I almost choked - it was as if I was reading a letter from VPW himself. It's one thing to splinter off of a ministry, but why teach exactly the same things? Why not improve on it by doing some actual research utilizing independent resources, anything OTHER than what TWI used?

I've had quite a bit of interactions with Jehovahs, and yes, they are most definitely Christians. However, it also is a cult, much like TWI. The major flaw with them is that they believe the return has already happened, and that only 144,000 are saved, the rest of us must go through the tribulation. Apparently, they didn't read the next 3 or 4 verses in Revelation where it talks about the believers that are as the sands in multitude. Oh, well. My personal experience with some members has only been positive, some of the most loving Christians I've met - mind you, I'm only comparing with RC and TWI - and they have all had great integrity. I have only enjoyed speaking with them. So it doesn't surprise me what they did for you.

First, you are only paraphrasing half of the verse in Romans: Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. So, if one no longer accepts Jesus as Lord, why would that person continue to have salvation? Plus, it seems you are supposing someone can't have a change of belief. I find that to be starkly untrue. When a person takes in an abundance of worldly (sorry for the TWI term, but it fits) information, culminating in a complete adoption of that into their belief system, then the truth of God and Jesus are pushed aside in PREFERENCE of the world. Colossians has something to say about that: Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: So, if one rejects Christ, how can they be complete? Yes, I completely agree with the statement you reference. "Apparently you're so convinced that you're right, you don't want to see or hear anything else." From TLC page 10. The question you posed, highlighted in blue, bolded and underlined, is what I am referencing in my statement, highlighted in red, bolded and underlined. I am describing your supposition, not mine. You little analogy with the bird color is out in left field. I am NOT the one supposing one can't change their belief, by that question you ask it is YOU who is supposing that.

Seriously? You won't even acknowledge that your statement is incorrect? Wow.

Yes, this is your own supposition. Not mine.

That was your supposition, not mine.