Taxidev

Looking at the verse where these are listed: Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: I don't see anything about them being ministries, nor gifts, nor gift ministries. I see they were partly for the work of the ministry. So, that description by VPW apparently came out of thin air. It also states, quite clearly, that these were for the edifying of the body of Christ, not the lording of certain individuals, not for the admiration of certain individuals, not for the special treatment of certain individuals. So calling them "gift ministries" and declaring who had them is obviously another form of manipulation. I know that we can look at anything TWI has done and still does that elevates any person above another as anti-Christ activity, because Jesus Christ is the head, and all the rest of us are the body. Doesn't 1 Cor 12 describe how no one part of the body is any better than any other? So TWI giving more importance to anyone is against the Word of God. Isn't that wonderful?

Exactly. And that is what I meant by bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body. Absolutely. Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord. It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic. But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study. Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss. That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do. I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why? Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that? Not to give greater honor because of a title? They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God. This is precisely what I saw TWI had become. It was boring. And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format. The life was drained out, it was just business as usual. Anyway, socks, I think you nailed it.

I wouldn't say, "too", I would say "only". Unless we're trying to revive and restore the 1st century church, there's nothing since then that's worth reviving and restoring. Everything after that has been a construction of man, and I'm sure we all know what that means.

I don't have any of those. I've only got the ones that came with the e-Sword software. There are 15 in total, but I've found a few of them to be lacking. The Expositors Bible Commentary and Vincent’s Word Studies I find are the most worthwhile, at least for that particular topic about rightly dividing. It's truly amazing the wealth of information and insight available once we leave the confines of TWI. Not that I was so confined, but they did do their job of propounding what THEY wanted us to look at.

I completely agree. I recently did a study on this verse and reached the same conclusion. All my reference sources were NOT from TWI. It's amazing the depth of the Word that is available when one looks elsewhere. I'm not big on bible commentaries, but for this study I utilized two of them. This is from one of them. Vincent’s Word Studies: “The thought is that the minister of the gospel is to present the truth rightly, not abridging it, not handling it as a charlatan (see on 2Co_2:17), not making it a matter of wordy strife (2Ti_2:14), but treating it honestly and fully, in a straightforward manner.” My opinion of commentaries has changed drastically.

Okay, I made it to 5:31. That's where Rico declares that Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith - faith, which is the Greek word pistis, meaning strong conviction as to be unshakable - means the family faith. I don't even know what that means. It was something I heard Craig spewing constantly, and it made no sense to me where that definition came from. Obviously it came from VPW as a means of manipulation. But everywhere I see the word faith, it is that same Greek word. And no other Greek source I have found ever mentions anything other than a belief or a strong unshakable conviction of something. That was sad. And what you pointed out with that seems perfectly accurate.

No need to be sorry. You have live through something entirely different than I have. Your perspective of these people is extremely different than mine. Reading what they had done in the past is vastly different than living through it. I really couldn't even guess how my view would be today had I lived through everything you did. So, I don't know that our criteria are different, but our experiences absolutely are. Thank you for sharing them with me, and us here.

I really don't appreciate, nor understand, your insistence that I exercise critical thinking regarding the R&R group. It isn't necessary to just listen to their teachings, which is all I do. Then I may or may not go over the teaching to see if what I see in the Word agrees with what they are propounding. I am by no means "subject" to a con game, any more than I would be reading the works of Ernest Martin. I prefer to have some evidence before attempting to determine the truth. Maybe you're clairvoyant? For me, having no evidence of anything and making a claim is absolutely speculation. Actually, my invoking Saul was to make a point about myself, and isn't necessary to be related to any discussion here or anywhere else. I guess your critical thinking skills aren't all you think they are. Rather, you seem to just be critical.

Thank you, I will give it a listen tonight.

Thank you, socks. That's great feedback. And, as I'm sure you've guessed, I don't date back to VPW - he was dead already when I started attending my first twig.

Sorry, I don't know what this one is. Do you have a link to it? I'd like to hear it so I know what you are referring to. It's difficult for me to know if they were all former TWI folks. One for sure is Joel Osteen. I don't listen to him often, and I keep him at arm's length also, but he has helped me understand certain scriptures, merely by his delivery. I have read some of the research by Ernest Martin, that was interesting. I've watched Ravi Zacharias on YouTube, he has some interesting stuff. I'm currently reading a book by Bullinger on Job. I believe that would be it. The reason I'm interested in what you think about them is because of what you have written here that I have read. For the most part I find your perspective to be fresh. I understand, but that's not what they are. They are geared more toward the freedom we have because of what Jesus Christ did, and the perspective we can have because of the hope. Then others go into being a spiritual leader. There are still 4 or 5 I haven't heard, so I can't comment completely.

If you can ignore who the teachers are and instead just listen to what they are teaching, this is from their Labor Day conference in Florida. I've listened to almost all of them, and they don't sound at all like what I've heard from TWI. Granted, for me that only goes from LCM to early this year, but I'm sure that would have included a load of VPW's vomit. I'd be interested in your feedback. https://cms-production-backend.monkcms.com/Clients/player/videoplayer.php?sid=19447&url=https://d5bbe83c60a04a394646-483f0bef34c369da37be1439b575ba1f.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/h/0e7751730_1535766778_hope-conference-opening.mp3&mediaBID=5973404&template=https://cms-production-backend.monkcms.com/Clients/player/videoplayer.php&module=sermon&content_id=1473504&type=sound&CMSCODE=EKK&skin=skin_plain.xml&CMS_LINK=https://cms-production-backend.monkcms.com&width=400&height=300&fullscreen=&image=&overrideImage=false&playlist=true&autostart=true&target=MediaPlayer

That's true, it really is unusual. I've not seen any religious group that doesn't have some mechanism for receiving funds. Refreshingly, though, quite a few don't call it tithing nor make any demands, they just have a donate button on their web site, or a mail in address. I would think there's no skin off your nose either way, no? It's not so much that I'm trusting, but that I'm not critical. Very different. I believe anyone can change - I'm living proof that an evil person can do an about face. And I have good company - his name is Saul of Tarsus. I am no better than any of them, and they are no better than I. And so, I'm willing to give anyone a chance to prove themselves, unlike many here who are quick to be critical and condemn them to a life of evil. I'm even willing to give all of you a chance to change your view and to be willing to forgive and move on. Would you call that surprisingly trusting Rocky? Because I wouldn't. It wouldn't impact me at all, it would only benefit you who do it. The truth won't be hidden for long, and while I wait to see what that truth actually is I am at arm's length.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

It's not my preconceived notion that is being challenged, it is yours, by me. How would you know what my reaction is to their teachings? The only thing I have ever mentioned about them here is some of them were very good. How do you derive from that, "but when your R&R friends make a declaration (apparently) of thus saith the Lord, you take them at their word." ? I'm looking at my bible when they teach, I have learned how to use research materials - and not just the ones TWI pushed at us - and I have no issue at all getting back to them with a disagreement which, as I also have mentioned here, I have done. So how in the world do you make such a blatantly untrue statement as that?!

Yes, we have been through this. And it is absolutely speculation. Granted, it is speculation based on your experience with others. But those were others. That is no guarantee that these will do the same. And they haven't even given any signs that they will do the same. Hence, the speculation. And it isn't even like they just haven't mentioned money. If that was what they did, then this speculation would be a bit less speculative. But they have flat out told people where giving is supposed to be done, based on the bible. And that is to those in need, not to these individuals or the R&R group. If and when they start asking for money, I will gladly accept your "I told you so", but not until then.

Seriously? I don't know about all of them, but I do know a couple of them personally, and I have found about other of them - I know this will be a shocker - they work. Isn't that amazing?!?! Why do they have to be independently wealthy? Are you? I'm not, I just work.

You're speculating. It's over a year now and they have made no indication that they want money from anyone. On the contrary, they have stated specifically that they do NOT want our money, that if we want to give money we should find someone who is truly in need and give to them. That's biblical. It is surely obvious that he wants to make a name for himself - he has practically said so himself. But the rest, like your other statement, is speculation. Although, Oikios does have a link to send them money, whereas the R&R web site does not. So, for this one, we'll see.

I had heard this a couple months ago, right here. And I checked whois and found that it was true, the domain was registered prior to that big meeting in Tennessee. But I don't know what their intentions were for this domain, do you?

paw, I am a relative newcomer and a techie. In my zeal to be helpful I obviously have only been insulting. For that I am truly sorry. I come to you with my hat in my hand and my head held low. Rocky is correct - this is something I should have done with a private message. But since I insulted you publicly I apologize publicly. I realize, too late, that you have many years of experience with this site. My good intention was no excuse for being a knucklehead. I hope you do keep the site up, but if you decide to shut it down please don't let it be because of my stupid comments.

When he mentioned that it was a corrected teaching, all he said was some people may remember that point, and would recognize that this was a correction, but he wasn't going to re-teach the error. And this was in 1995 when I was listening to this, so I don't even remember what he was teaching. I'm guessing the tape was from 1992 or 1993; my friend had lent me a box of tapes. I did get the impression that TWI had already established what they considered to be truth, and someone disagreed with it, and sent in their research. This was on a STS, so it was in plain view of everyone. I had no reason to think he was BSing us - he said he agreed with the man's research and so corrected his own teaching. Sorry, that's all I've got.

Believe it or not, this exact thing happening is what prompted me to decide to attend a TWI fellowship. Craig was teaching a corrected teaching of something, back in the early 90s. I was listening to his tape in 1995. He said someone sent in their research on a particular point, and Craig gave it to the research department, and they found the man was correct, so Craig was teaching the corrected topic. I thought that was amazing. But then, what he said next, I almost drove off the road - I only had a cassette player in my truck at the time. He said that any of us could send in our research if we disagreed with something. He would throw it out if we just thought is wasn't correct, we had to have research to support our view. But they would look at it, and if they found we were correct, then they would correct that teaching also. That was something that no other religious organization ever said in my lifetime. So, that was it. I wanted to learn from the ones that knew they were still learning. Unfortunately, it didn't take long for that attitude to become perverted, and Craig's ego went through the roof - so much so that it poured off the screen of his new foundational class. But when I heard him make that statement, I wouldn't have cared how much plagiarism had taken place in the past. All I cared about was where I was going from that point.

One can have a virtual server, with some pretty big power, for $60 / month. phpBB and myBB are both powerful boards and both are free. The link you show, that GoGeek plan might be big enough for this site, but I don't really have any idea about the traffic level here, or the storage needs.

One of my fb friends posted this video, and I think it's just so relevant: https://www.facebook.com/dailygoalcast/videos/676785466030684/

You've got to be kidding!!! Why in the world is it so much?