Taxidev

My friend had lent me some STS cassettes to listen to because I had pretty deep questions that she wasn't able to answer adequately. Her reasoning was that I needed to hear directly from HQ. On one tape, Craig Martindale was correcting a prior teaching, and said specifically that any of us, if we had done some serious research, could send in a disagreement about a teaching, and if they found this person's research to be correct, they would correct that teaching also. That was it for me. I wanted to study the bible with a group that was still studying the bible and didn't think they had all the knowledge and no one could question anything. Unfortunately, now they have become the all-knowing, don't question us, type of ministry. Very disappointing.

Actually, acronyms are lost on me so, no, I have no idea what those are. Please enlighten me. And I must apologize, I didn't realize you had asked me any questions or made comments that I was to respond to. I haven't been here for a couple weeks, I might have missed them if they were just in the flow. Did you quote me so I'd get notified? Please ask again, I'll be happy to share anything I know.

Thanks, Raf.

What is this book?

I would say the parts where he is quoting scripture.

HAHAHAHA! Got me! Thanks for the clarification.

Uncle Hairy Uncle Harry really said that?!?! But he was VPW's brother, right? And wasn't he the treasurer for TWI? I thought he was committed to them for life. Did I miss a history lesson?

Ham's post is from 2013. I don't think it can be considered new.

Last year I saw Tomorrowland with my youngest son, and Brit Robertson stood out as a shining star. Her facial expressions were incredibly on track, and added an immense depth to her character. Then this year I saw her in Mother's Day, and again she shined bright. Probably the best young female I've seen lately.

No offense taken, and I appreciate the insight from all of you "old timers" here. I have seen quite bit in my short time associated with twi, and I have heard some horror stories about the lower NY area, which is where I am. I was an intermediate grad when Martindale crashed and burned, and attended the advanced class in Gunnison because of all the turmoil in Ohio. I have mentioned in other threads that I am committed to no organization, I listen to a variety of teachers, both ministerial and secular, and I do my best at being like a Berean. I am fortunate that my fellowship coordinator is a really excellent teacher. She hasn't been completely brain washed, and gets into some great depth in her teachings. But I also scrutinize what she teaches anyway. BTW, it would take a lot to offend me. Please don't ever think you need to treat me with kid gloves. I've been around a bit.

I know, I was trying to be ironic.

First, I have to say this was a great discussion! Thank you all for contributing. I just looked at the book "Jesus Christ Is Not God" to see what was in the bibliography, and there isn't one. I found this very strange because "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" has one about 17 pages long. I find it strange also because there are other organizations that understand Jesus is not God, thereby refuting the trinity. I also have a great book, "Early Christians Speak", and that is where I find, historically, the first use of the word trinity. While I appreciate VPW's book, he does make it look like he's the only person that understood any of this. Funny, I didn't realize that in all these years. And I never thought he was infallible - there are several things he taught that I found preposterous, and contradictory to other things he taught - but this particular book I found to be excellent. I just would have liked to know his sources.

So, don't judge this book by its cover, you'll be sorely disappointed.

GVC, You may find this of interest. Ernest Martin, who was a major resource for "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed", a key astronomer that determined through computers when Jesus Christ was born - no, it certainly wasn't VPW - put together this study on the evils of the tithe in our day and time. http://www.askelm.com/tithing/

So, I understand, they did some pretty crappy things, many that are difficult to forget. I didn't experience that crap, but I am still at arm's length. I don't easily entrench myself, and I am in no rush to be committed to an organization. But so far, I like what they are doing. I'm sure it is BECAUSE I didn't experience what you did that I am able to approach them without judgement. I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves, and by their fruits they will be known.

I just recently stumbled upon a site called Christian Outreach Fellowships, and a free class offered by them taught by Vince Finnegan. That names sounds vaguely familiar, but I place from where. Anyone here have any experience with him?

I missed all this crap. I started going to fellowship in Nov 1995, and had a really terrific fellowship coordinator that had a big heart for God, His Word, and the people. Even my branch coordinator, while being a bit of a buffoon, had a huge heart. I understood very early that what I did with my money as far as ABS goes, is between me and God. And while I appreciated the recommendations about how to "schedule the adversary out", I never shared my personal schedule with anyone, and was never asked to either. You people really went through a $hit storm!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You NAILED it! And I don't do that.

JayDee, They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness. I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. These two groups, R&R and TWI, are NOT mutually exclusive, because I am committed to neither. I listen to the teachings from both, and to the best I can I act like the Bereans and check the Word for myself. I was being raise Roman Catholic, so when I met TWI I learned more in one year than I had in the prior 40 of my life, and that included reading the bible for myself - what an eye opener THAT was. There is more depth in the R&R teachings than I have gotten from TWI in the past 10 years. I also listen to other ministers, ordained or not - because I don't give much credence to that title - and I learn what I can learn from each of them. For me, it is the Word that matters, so I can easily distance myself from the organization and the individuals and just listen to the teachings. I really am hopeful that you are incorrect about R&R, but if you are not I will realize it and I will take appropriate action to protect myself. But so far none of them have propounded VPW's views on managing a ministry. In fact, they have taken a completely different course in running their group. And, while they do occasionally mention something he taught, what they mention is backed up in the Word, and that's all that matters to me.

The current WAP class has an assortment of teachers, not Craig.

Initially, by conferring together and composing a letter of issues they had all noticed, almost entirely independently, they had all taken a long look at what the Word says about the things they were seeing, to make sure they were on the right track. Now, they address in their public teachings many of the issues that they have had to address, many of the wrongs they also had a hand in, and what the Word says about these things. Personally, I have had only positive experiences with some of them, and no experiences with the rest. Not being in leadership myself, there were many things going on I was not aware of. But other things they did bring up, while not seeing them directly, I was feeling the effects of in my fellowship. For instance, outreach. It's been over a year since I have invited someone to fellowship. I was very happy to discuss the bible and God, but I made no move to invite them. Why? Because in my gut I felt it would be wrong, even though I didn't understand why I felt that. Now I do. And on this topic, R&R has shown, in the Word, that outreach isn't about getting people to a fellowship or in a class, it is about clearing the fog for people, to show them the light of the Word. That's it. If they want more, they'll ask for more. But they don't have to sit in a WI class to get more, I am quite capable to teach them more. And that's really what we should be doing. The Word fitly spoken. For free. This is just one example of the doctrinal error TWI has propagated that the R&R group is dismantling. The tithe is another, which I have already mentioned. There are others, but I need to sleep. I'll be back, and we can continue this discussion.

Believe it or not, there is no more research at TWI. They are doing exactly this - rewording what VPW has done. There are only so many book reports on the same book before it gets mundane, especially with the bleaching done to the STS teachings by Rosalie. I stopped getting the STS CDs because they were putting me to sleep. My local fellowship has better teachings, so I still go there.

But Grace, you're here. With R&R, there are really great teachings from the Word, without the TWI slant on it.

sky, maybe you aren't aware, but at around this time Rosalie also dispensed with the research department. She felt we have all the truth we need. I was stunned when I learned that.

And seems to be trying really hard to be a whited sepulcher.