Taxidev

My heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with this situation. I have only attended the bible fellowships and taken the classes. I was never interested in the way corps, but I did do the way disciple program - that's the modified version of WOW. That 6 months on the field was not the wonderful time I was led to believe it would be. I have been on the R&R facebook page, and have been listening to their Sunday night phone hookups, and am connected to them through a forum app. While their beginnings showed promise in that they enumerated the issues they had with TWI, and they seem to want to completely break free from the methodology, what you point out, chockfull, is correct - they are still regurgitating what VPW propounded. They even quote from and reference his collaterals. Granted, there is a lot of biblical accuracy in what TWI has taught because he happened to pull information from good sources. But I have also found error and contradiction. Obviously, it is EXTREMELY difficult to unlearn the programming by a cult, especially after being involved for many years. I personally know several of the R&R members, some of them were involved from the beginning, and they were with TWI for 20 to 40 years. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try to shed all that crap.

From very early on I didn't buy into the thought that if you weren't studying the bible with the Way, then you don't know anything. I actually had an argument with my fellowship coordinator about this, because I had already learned so much that she couldn't even answer many of my questions - they were far from basic. So, all along, I have read and listened to other ministers. I even had a great conversation with a minister while I was on the Way Disciple program. He had some tremendous insight. But, yes, I had seen what you mention, and for me it just didn't make sense to completely disregard other teachers. After all, didn't VPW learn from others?

You just reminded me of another phrase - research means re-search. So, yes, they will have others re-search all the collaterals and call that research. Thanks for the reminder.

They can't legitimately say this anymore. They shut down the research department.

I've seen this in many groups, and of course TWI. I've known people that are almost like robots because of this, or act like this activates a hypnotic spell. It's pretty scary, actually. Talk about group think!

Sounds like classic LCM to me.

"would you be blessed to..." and then whatever it is they wanted you to do. I never understood what the problem was with just asking, "Would you do such and such?" I'm sure hardly anyone would have said no, unless their schedule was too tight. But with the "blessed to" question, it seemed to have put more pressure on people.

Exactly! I have encountered a few honest way corps that actually said until I could understand it. But that is still a major twisting of the Word.

This isn't everybody, but it is still very present.

T-Bone, I do have experience by having a family member heavily involved, and also a friend. Their secondary purpose is not so broadcast, but is understood, sort of like the police quotas on tickets. It is: once an alcoholic, always and alcoholic, so you'll always have to come to AA meetings. I never understood what the benefit is of this, other than control over other people. I never learned anything that would suggest there was any monetary benefit, but there may have been. So, it seems VPW didn't really get their method so bassbacward after all.

It could have been, but the text reads: "Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind" That "as" means just like, but it doesn't mean it actually was a rushing mighty wind. It just sounded like one. There may have been no air movement at all. And it, like the cloven tongues, could very well have been only noticed by the twelve, meaning it was revelation only for them. I think if the other people in the temple had seen and heard those things, then no one could have suggested the twelve were drunk on new wine.

That's because they didn't have TWI foundational class. HA!

Thank you, Spectrum. Yes, now I recall this from the foundational class, although I think you explained it better in these few sentences than what I remember from the class. But, that could be due to my faded memory. So, this actually adds to my response to TLC, in that receiving holy spirit we are also seated in the heavenlies with Jesus Christ. Without that spirit within we can make no such claim.

After reading what Spectrum showed me, I can respond. My answer to your question lines up perfectly with John 3:8. No one at the temple saw anything actually happen to the twelve. But they saw the result when they spoke in tongues. And they also saw the result when Peter stood up and gave the greatest impromptu teaching I know of.

Thank you. It does make sense. And now I can answer TLC.

Agreed. In fact, those individual statements seem to indicate an overlap of multiple statements, even though some would have begun before others. I wouldn't take it to that extreme, but I get your point. It does look to emphasize each of them, and that they happened in succession.

Now you have me wondering also. But I really like how you make these connections.

Being born again is to receive holy spirit within. I'm not so sure anyone has actually entered the kingdom of God. I would have to look into that one, but it will probably take a while and doesn't really follow the point of the topic here. As for that verse, I have no idea how what I said fits that, if at all. I'm not so sure I even know what it really means. Do you?

I see V 1-4 as a rapid succession of events, maybe overlapping, maybe not, but still taken in order as given. In 41-46 I see it as a sequence of events, but a summary of those events all the same, building to the crescendo in V 46. But, it makes sense to me that there would be overlap of almost all of them.

Is this not the first time recorded that anyone was born again of the spirit? That's what the "new man" is, no? And isn't that an indication of new life? Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Are you implying that this could have happened prior to Pentecost?

I follow the same mind. I would love to be able to say that I have it all down, but such is not the case, as I indicated with your correlation between the start of physical life and spiritual life. I am here both to learn from all of you and to share what I do understand. The point of Jesus breathing on was a stickler for me because I had met former wayers that said they were hyperventilating trying to receive holy spirit. It was all I could do not to laugh. But I see where they would have gotten that from. VPW propounded that they were breathing heavily, so heavily that it sounded like a heavy wind and filled the temple. My contention was that if they had to breath in to receive holy spirit, then that should mean all of us do, but you don't inhale spirit. Plus, while I have never seen the temple, I have been in a synagogue, and those guys would have had to have some serious breathing to fill even that small place to that extent.

Spectrum, I looked for another occurrence of many and's - I didn't have to go far. Acts 2:41-46 Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, If "and" means simultaneously then they broke bread, prayed, many signs happened all at once, they sold their possessions, all together. This doesn't make sense. I'm inclined to believe this was a tight sequence of events, just as in verses 1-4. Ans also like verses 1-4, each of these items it important. What do you see?

Yes, that IS interesting. I hadn't seen that correlation before - thanks for showing that. That makes perfect sense. The only thing I would think came as an after effect would be them speaking in tongues. They would have to have received holy spirit first. While I understand your point, I believe there are other instances in the bible of many ands that indicate a rapid succession of events, not that they happened all at once. I will have to look that up and post again to you.

Acts 2:1-4 I was taught by TWI that God's Word if perfect, in what it says, and how it says it. And then I was taught that Acts 2:1-4 should be read as Acts 2:1,3,2,4. This was because, in John 20:22 it says, "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:", and VPW says it means he breathed in. So Acts 2:3 must be read before verse 2, so they could breathe in at the correct time, prior to the cloven tongues like fire landing on their heads. "breathed on" is the Greek word, emphusaō. Of all the research materials I have searched, only VPW says this means breathed in. Everyone else says it means breathed on or out, or blow on. So I wondered, how did they know they should breathe in if the cloven tongues showed up afterward. It never made sense to me, and I was wondering if any of you have ever looked into this, and what you may have found. Anyone?

I went to my first fellowship in November 1995 after having taken the VPW foundational class in May that year. It was the last time that version of the class ran in our area. And I still attend fellowship from time to time, only because I really like how my coordinator teaches. She is a recent corps grad, young, with plenty of zeal for God and His Word. And while she is obviously indoctrinated to support and promote all things TWI, when she's teaching none of that is there. What I have stopped doing is going to branch meetings, going to outreach events, tithing, and my subscription to the STS. I still have time left on my magazine subscription, but haven't decided yet if I will continue it.