Taxidev

I will absolutely. Would you like me to include your incredible description of the past also? The one that includes that incredibly lengthy reply, "Hi Ralph"? I would be emailing it to the entire inner circle.

Actually, I'm very interested in doing this BECAUSE of that reaction. I have saved your entire post, and I will be presenting it to them tomorrow. And I will share every detail with you here.

Interesting that you say this. They have all - those that have them - kept their "Reverend" titles. I don't understand that.

That's a very good point, and a great explanation as to why there is an obvious inner circle that calls the shots about what happens in the R&R group. But they did say our giving should go anywhere other than to them. Your prior comment to some points I made is a bit deeper, and at first read I think I may not have been clear on the timing of things. I'm going to look at that and get back to you on it.

I can do that, if you like.

This whole description is fabulous! So well put, T, thank you. This distinction is what some of us - me and some folks local to me - have realized is what "abundant sharing" is truly about. The first century believers didn't send money to Jerusalem to support the new church, they helped people locally, whoever had need. Only once does the Word say they sent money to Jerusalem, and that was to help those in need during the - famine? I think that's what it was. So, according to what I have recently learned, giving the money directly to the person is need is the way to go. You may be 100% correct. I don't know many of these people, I have had direct dealings with only a few, and I know they haven't acted despicably toward me. So maybe, like Paul, the ones I know personally are good people to begin with. You have fed me quite a bit with this entire post, and I really appreciate it.

I don't know. How long did you need?

Instead, how about you tell me which aspects of these scriptures relate to the point you are making? Matt 18 is pretty short, but the two Timothys are extensive, and I doubt I will be able to discern the point you are trying to make through all of it. If you tell me the points, then I can look at those in relation to what you have said. I'm sorry, I don't have any idea what you mean by this. I know Jesus taught forgiveness, but I'm guessing you are thinking about something else.

Agreed. But mental prison is mental prison. As I had indicated earlier, I don't know most of these people, and I have no experience being entrenched in a cult. But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC. Being born again is no guarantee of doing the right thing. It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine, then what can be expected? That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing. As I also have indicated before, I am in no way defending anything they may have done or said. But I believe it is equally incorrect to not give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind, and are actually working to break themselves free of those mental prisons.

No, they had the Torah and what Jesus Christ had taught them, and what they had already experienced. No private interpretation nor private speculation. I read the record. They referenced the prophets, but I'm not sure from where: Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

They have made it very clear they do not want any money from anyone. But I'm sure they could use the emotional support. Yes, they seem to be conducting themselves as in a leadership role which, in my view, is not the correct thing to do. Jesus Christ is the head, and we are all the body, including them. Maybe doing this is feeding their egos, some of them, because they believed they should have had more authority at TWI. I can only speculate, but I won't judge them. They, as well as all of you here, have been through a lot more than I have. As long as they don't try to control what I, and those of us who are listening to their teachings, do then I have no issue with it. I'm thinking they may realize, as they work through the process and engage in conversations, that they have just put themselves in a "board of directors" capacity, exactly the thing they had issue with.

What I understand about this is: When Paul started making an impact with the Gentiles, he didn't get direction from the council in Jerusalem. He went around doing his own thing, and they were glad about it. By Acts 15, when he went there to handle the law being forced on the Gentiles, the entire group of believers there were in agreement on the final outcome of sending a letter with Paul to correct that situation. It seems by then there was some outside influence pushing on them, but still they used the Word to come to a full agreement. Then, by the time Paul made his way back to Jerusalem, there was so much poison that had infiltrated, it wasn't the same organization Paul had originally met early on. And that's when the poisonous influence went out to the places where Paul had taught, and turned people against him. That's where I see the micromanagement coming into play, but not in the beginning.

These were not of the ones that apologized. And I have no experience with them at all, not even teachings. When I started attending fellowship they were either in England or were preparing to go, and that was all I ever heard about them. The fact is what I heard from them. That's all I have to base my perspective on. If they are genuine about it, then it shouldn't matter what they did while in the throws of the mental prison. Look what Paul had done to Christians. He just changed his way and moved ahead with the new truth he understood. While I haven't seen anything in the bible indicating that he asked forgiveness of the families he had destroyed, I would be hard pressed to think he never addressed it. The R&R group has made it clear they want money from no one. They want us - those who have listened to their story of departure and to their teachings - to give to any other cause as we see fit, much like the believers did in Acts. They gave to those in need, individuals not organizations. Yes, and I still say that. But I also say, just as I wasn't sold out to TWI, I am not sold out to them. I am not even sold out to the local group that I have association with. All I care about, and have always cared about since I was 22 years old, is the truth of God's Word, and how to live it better every day. That's probably why I hold no grudges against those who have acted crappy toward me. I understand the grip a cult can have on people, and how they pretty much lose control of themselves. I hope my perspective of them today is correct, and yours is incorrect. But if you are correct, it probably won't phase me at all - I'll just stop associating with them too. BTW, I really appreciate all that background history. I knew things were bad back then, but I didn't know the half of it.

Actually, you can use zoom to remote in and join the meetings. If interested, just message me for the details.

See, for better or worse, I never perceived a support system. I kept myself at arm's length for quite some time, just going to fellowship to hear the teachings, or for me to teach. I realized the "full sharing" just didn't really exist, so it was becoming like "church", and I was gradually participating in less and less activities. I stopped going to outreach events, then branch meetings, then I wouldn't even go to fellowship when they did the STS hookups or DVDs because they were so boring.

This is precisely NOT how the church was in the first century. All the churches were local, with no micromanagement from Jerusalem. The guys in Israel handled Israel, and the guys in Asia handled Asia, and within those areas there were small groups enjoying God's Love and Word together. The only leadership needed is Jesus Christ. He is the head, and we are the body. And every part of the body is to help sharpen every other part of the body. The folks I have been associating with are doing just this. We take turns teaching on topics that we are interested in and have been working for ourselves, and everyone in the group is welcome to offer their own insights into those topics as a way to fine tune those teachings. It's wonderful!

I think that depends on how deeply one is "in". I'm officially out for 5 days now and I feel great. But I was not sold out to TWI, and I wasn't in the corps. I seriously doubt my 22 years will require anywhere near 44 to cleanse. I wasn't in the corps, and have been more of a spectator for the past two years.

Thank you both very much.

A point to consider is that they left only around 2 years ago, mostly. And what I have heard, and perceived, is that many of them are still struggling to shed the crap. It's like they were blind for so long that now that they can see they don't really know where they are, because they don't recognize anything around them. It does seem at times that they are continuing, somewhat, in the same structural M.O. as when they were in TWI, except they aren't trying to control anyone, and they don't want anyone's money, although there does seem to be an inner circle that calls the shots as to what happens in the group. But the teachings they do on Sundays are, mostly, vastly superior to what has been coming out of Ohio for the past few years. Maybe it would help them to come here to vent, and to see what all of you have to say. While it's been educational to me - I wasn't involved in anything in Ohio other than taking the advanced class - it would probably be extremely eye opening for them, and ideally helpful for them to resolve things within themselves.

I also understand that. But anger at an organization is very different than anger at an individual, especially if that individual has also broken away from that organization. I was with the Roman Church until 12 years old, when I walked out of that church building and never went back. The hypocrisy was oozing down the aisles from the pulpit, it was disgusting. But I have met a few priests from that organization that actually believe they are in the right place, and have an obvious love for God and His people. So, while I am repulsed by that organization, I am not repulsed by those who have been sucked into it. I was impacted also, in that I could have owned several investment properties by now. But, that no debt thing, you know... But I hold no grudges against those that misguided me. It was still my choice. Maybe some didn't actually understand that God gave us free will, but I did. And I chose poorly. But to hang onto the anger I initially felt when I realized what had happened would be worse for me than what has already happened.

While I understand the anger, have you considered that maybe they bought VPW's BS so completely that this is how they ended up acting? Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not defending any of them. Many I have never met, and several I have, and only a few did I actually get to spend time with and get to know them. But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me. Yes, I'm glad I was introduced to the group, and I really appreciate the blatant honesty - something that was so lacking in TWI. But along with that honesty I do perceive residual anger, and an unwillingness to forgive people that have also broken away from the cult, and maybe have even more "crap" to shed than some here have had. Unfortunately, I won't have anymore current info. Just last Friday I told my branch coordinator that after everything I have learned over the past year and a half, I just can't continue attending their fellowship. I gave her a teaching I had put together recently on the fallacy of the tithe, and told her this is a teaching they would never want me to do because it runs at cross purposes to TWI. I gave a lot of background also, where my thinking has been for the past couple years. The R&R group, GreaseSpot and others all had a hand in my decision. And I thank all of you for helping me see things more clearly.

Perfect! I was just discussing this with a friend a few weeks ago, and we've done teachings about it. The major point I found was we are ALL supposed to be participating in "iron sharpens iron", but if what we talk about is dictated, then there's no sharpening at all. Thanks for the link, I will be looking through the site over the next few days.

This is how I understand it. Yes, I didn't just confirm that VPW properly stated his resources, but that his resources also lined up with the Word, at least to the best of my understanding, and also even modified understanding. While I am a relative newcomer, I am right with you on this. So far one of the most interested threads I've read is on the trinity. There were aspects that I never heard of from the Roman church, and certainly not from TWI, and it led me to seriously ponder those perspectives. I haven't had exposure to so many different viewpoints in a great many years. This is the great thing about GSC!

Without a doubt!

I am not supposing. I acted like a Berean and checked it to see if those things were so. And I have found some of the resources that VPW so obviously used as the basis of many things he presented.