Taxidev

Sounds like a ruthless form of manipulation for control. The more I learn about this guy the more I dislike him. I never met him, only saw one video class of him. What a great actor!

And, apparently, not slaves to Christ, either.

I echo your sentiment about my way disciple experience, and that was only 6 months.

If you are referring to his 114 page paper on salvation, he makes no such assertion - unless I missed it. But if you have other information about what he may have said or written, please share.

Wow, such excitement I missed by not being in the corps, and not being at HQ.

You are mistaken, sky. I have never said this group is great. I may have said my local group is great, but that involves none of those who originated R&R. I may have said some of the things they've done are great. But I'm pretty sure I have only said I'm willing to give them a chance to prove themselves, that I've noticed some shortcomings already, and I like the phone call teachings. But, hey, no group of people is going to be perfect, especially a group that has so many people that had been so corrupted for so long. I applaud them for leaving TWI, and I am in wait-and-see mode. Like I've made clear before, I have none of them on a pedestal, so I'm not blinded by any of them. So far they have done and said nothing that suggests they are in it for the power, glory, or money.

At the moment, no one is actually leading anything. There is a core group that organizes the phone teachings, but no one is telling anyone what they should be doing. It's refreshing, actually. When my friend was asked if he wanted to teach, he chose his own topic - no micromanagement. That was great!

There was recently an R&R teaching on this on a Sunday call. It was incredibly well received, got a ton of positive feedback. I was glad about that. Maybe they won't gravitate toward a power play like the other splinters. That would thrill me.

The large group, on occasion, will put on a large event, typically in Florida. I haven't been to one yet, due to scheduling. There have been, I believe, three in Florida, and one out west somewhere, I think Northern California, not positive on that one. But their teachings are on Sunday night phone calls. My local group, typically we will hang out afterwards, either eat together, or play some games, or use the pool. Now that the weather is warmer we might end up going to the park or something. It's a pretty close group. Any group-research sessions? None that I know of. Any Q&A out-in-the-open feedback.....without condescension/blacklisted? There is immediate feedback after the hookup teaching for the large group. It has been all very positive, appreciative type feedback - what I got out if this teaching, sort of thing. In my local group we have had some discussions on the topic that was taught, where individuals have offered insight and/or their own research on it. It's a learning, growing experience. No one in my local group thinks they are the expert. It's wonderful! Have they instigated the mark/avoid policy yet? None. Any children activities or teen events? At my local group this topic has just come up. From the large group I have heard nothing about this. How about community involvement of any kind? I only know about my local group, and that is on an individual basis, because we are not an organized ministry, we are just a bunch of believers in the Body of Christ. If I give them my hard-earned money, where does it go? They don't want your money, and they have made that abundantly clear. They want you to give to those in need, that preferably you know of personally, or anyone else you choose, but not them. My local group has also specified this.

Where do you see that? I can't pinpoint it anywhere.

Very insightful! I go on many of those phone hookups and, mostly, they are very good Word-based teachings, usually some topic the teacher had been working. But that seems to be all there is from the large group.

Initially he was not supported, he was working at tent making or whatever his craft was. Later, yes, he even confronts the Corinthians that another church was supporting him so he could teach the Corinthians and not be a burden to them.

An unfortunate trend I am now seeing - they hold VPW on a pedestal. I was only a little surprised, because of all the things share here and on another thread, Offshoot of an Offshoot. But still quite disappointed.

Absolutely. For $10/month for hosting, you can have a completely free web site as far as everything else goes. Wordpress - free; templates - free; content - put it in yourself, so free; special utilities - free. I'm having a hard time finding where Paul started his ministry and asked for money, and he was out there working it every day, all day. Not from the comfort of his own house, until the end. This is shameful.

Either way, it's still a bit disappointing. I mean, what has he done so far that would even inspire anyone to donate money to him? Besides drawing up that incredibly long paper on salvation, which some might say is cause to NOT give him money, what has he done? His web site isn't even functional, we can't even see what his foundational principles are, we can't even watch/listen to some good teachings. I see this as the perfect example of what DWBH says about these offshoot folks.

His web site isn't functional yet. There is nothing to click. OldSkool gave me the answer.

Where did you see this? I just went to his web site and it isn't even functional yet.

I appreciate your concern, Grace. But as I told Rocky, I am not sold out to anyone, and I have none of them on a pedestal. God is Who I seek after, His Word is what I have held high, and I will happily walk away from anyone, as I have already done, who demonstrates evil. For now I listen to their teachings which, so far, is based on the Word. There has been no manipulation and no subtle messages, both so prevalent in TWI fellowships. FWI - it took me 18 months to decide to leave TWI completely, which I started considering a good 7 months before being introduced to R&R. They were just one contributing factor to my decision, as well as GSC, Bullinger, a couple of my friends on FB that were in TWI and had already left on their own, Ernest Martin, Joel Osteen, Ravi Zacharias, and a few local friends who had been involved with TWI also. I'm not sold out to any of them either. But I do enjoy reading/listening to what they have to say, and I am thankful for all of them for what they have all shared so willingly.

Yes I have, and that is definitely it. I want to so much that I am not passing judgement on them, until they show they are deserving of it now. None whatsoever. While I understand statistics very well, I also understand that there are the outliers that may or may not be included in those statistics. Yes, I would like to see them be those outliers. Time will tell, and I will allow them that time.

Not at all, but thanks for your concern.

That's a very good question. And raises a disheartening answer. From what I understand, they are doing outreach, much like TWI promotes, and inviting people to their own local fellowship. Hmmm..... With God all things are possible. But I can only assume they are being right with God - and we all know what happens when one assumes. It does tend to do that, when people ignore what caused it in the first place. I am hopeful that they won't do that, not for me, but for themselves and new people they meet. As I have shared elsewhere, I'm not sold out to them, I have none of them on a pedestal, but I am willing to give them a chance to show they have changed. But, like I have also shared before, they never did me wrong, so it's much easier for me to wait patiently.

By that thinking I should still be out stealing bikes and selling drugs. How incredibly closed-minded and critical! Have you even taken a look at what they are doing and how they are doing it? They do teachings on Sunday nights, and they post those teachings on their web site. Those that formed the group are scattered around the country. They keep in touch by an app. I know very well that many here have had some horrible experiences at the hands of some of them, but do you really insist that they just can't change? I changed. I'm one of the most honest people in my state. But would you condemn me to be a life-long drug dealer?

While there is nothing that can take us from salvation, we can take ourselves from salvation by our own attitude of heart. It isn't mistakes we make, but a change of attitude, in effect a turning away from God, even though we've been born again. I found the same concept in Romans: Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. It's a topic I'm still working on, but I'm now pretty much convinced that we can mess it up for ourselves.

I started reading it, but it is so full of rhetoric that it is not easy to get through. I know the gist already, and I agree with his findings, but my own research is just a few pages and without the fluff. It could take weeks before I get completely through his.

Your description of VPW's approach to compiling information reminds me of my former step-father. Every Sunday morning he would grab the paper before any of us had a chance, and he would hide in his bedroom with it. One particular morning he came out of the room with a HUGE, insightful announcement about washing your face. "Do it twice and your face will SHINE!!!" he declared. Later that evening, I finally had my chance at the paper (I was the youngest there) and happened to read the article about the face washing. I just shook my head, thinking what a schmuck my step-dad was. I lost all respect for him at that moment, realizing he was a fraud. I now feel the same about VPW, and am surprised that there are so many "old-timers" that are still dedicated to him. I just recently came across a study by Bullinger on Job, from victim to victor. It is the entirety of what is covered in the FNC from TWI, and then some.