Taxidev

As it's said, a rose by any other name... Yes, on the field, TWI absolutely celebrated christmas and valentine's day, and st patrick's day, and every other pagan ritual celebrated in the USA, just with their own twist, like that makes it all okay. Just another of their twisted logic BS methods of control.

That's so sad.

From what I've seen of R&R, which is quite a bit, it's not even along these lines. It's more like they're just stuck in the "I'm the teacher and you're the student" mindset. It's like they are stuck in a trench and instead of digging out they just keep pacing back and forth. Maybe the first couple of laps it's interesting, but then, why? I never felt like they were imposing anything on me, they never demanded any particular actions, they never asked for money, they never tried to rally us to some cause. I was receiving no benefit from listening to them. They just taught their own topics. And continuously injected some obscure principle from VPW, or quoted him, or praised him. It just got so boring. That's why I stopped listening to them. At least here we can select a topic that interests us, or even start our own, and have a discussion with others that are also interested in that topic. And we get to challenge each other, and lead each other to think differently. I couldn't do that with R&R. I know a lot of people think poorly of Joel Osteen, and criticize him. But I've listened to some of his teachings on youtube and they were more relevant to daily life than anything the R&R group has put out up to the last time I listened.

Volchic, it seems you and I left close to the same time. I know some people that were directly involved with the R&R group, and I followed them for a while. I really had high hopes for them. Rocky especially can attest to that. But they aren't much different than TWI, except right now they don't have a central headquarters. As most people here can tell you, be wary of the splinter groups. There is tons of information here for you, and even though I'm not a gambling man I am positive and would bet that you'll be able to relate to a lot of it. I'm happy for you for leaving. T

I don't really know Moynihan, he wasn't much present during my time with TWI. Fort was around for a while. I remember enjoying how he taught. Magnelli and Horney I had a lot of exposure to, both through the CDs and magazine, and also on campus, either at Gunnison or New Knoxville. I liked them. Of course, at that time I didn't know anything about the hidden secrets. I have shared here how I gave them a chance in their new endeavor to show if they were doing anything different. They aren't, except for one thing. They seem hell-bent on getting things back to how they were with VPW rather than how they were with LCM. When they first announced their separation from TWI I was looking forward to seeing something new and fresh, but how disappointing it was when just the opposite happened. Their teachings, while sometimes providing an interesting point here and there, were just as mundane as the STS from TWI, just a little meatier and not like being in kindergarten. Still, they were irrelevant to me. I often wondered how they came up with their topics. Were they requested by the body of believers? Did they have some insight into some issues that people were having? Were they related to some current events? No, no, and no. They were just topics that those teachers felt like teaching, demonstrating their supreme understanding of a topic. Yuk. As many of you are aware, I stopped listening to them early this year. I've been on their web site 4 times since then, just to see what they had taught and recorded. I have listened to none of them. How wonderful it would be to meet a minister/teacher that goes around like Paul did, speaking with people where they live, and covering topics in the bible that are relevant to their situation. I guess I have high hopes.

I understand this, and I agree with it's most likely outcome. But I still find it presumptuous to say this is what they will do, based on others doing it. They have their own web site where they post the recorded teachings, and they have a dial-in setup to listen live. Much better than Facebook. Still, I don't see it building any significant momentum, as you brought up. I already stepped away, I wonder how many others have. I understand sunesis, but I don't see that in this situation. I find it presumptuous and speculative to say they will do the same thing as other splinters. They still insist they don't want any money. But, I am not saying they won't. I don't know any more than anyone else at this point. I only know what I've seen and heard of them, which is no indication that they intend to centralize a location. They have their inner circle of control over the group, which existed from the beginning. In today's technical world there is no need to have a brick-and-mortar location any more than a retail outlet needs one.

There is always more than one way. But my view is based on what I have seen and heard to date. True, it's possible he learned from someone in the know that they will do that. But I seriously doubt it.

Exactly.

I find this concept to be only a false comforting. God gave us free will. If we were ALWAYS where God wanted us to be, then that is edging into control, and He doesn't control us. We have the free will to following His urging or to ignore it. I cite Paul as an example. He was told several times, even by a prophet, NOT to go to Jerusalem, yet he ignored God's urging and went anyway. It almost killed him. But, God was able to use that error in judgement for profit. So, no, I say I have definitely not always been exactly where I was supposed to be at any given time in my life. What I find more comforting is knowing that God can work with me in spite of my poor decisions.

Even though I walked away from them, I must disagree with you. First, they've been doing large gatherings since their first year. I know a few people who have gone and it was just like a huge limb meeting, with pre-designated teachers. I didn't bother going. Second, I have yet to get any indication that they want a "central location", just like they don't want anyone's money. You are speculating unless, of course, you have received revelation that they are intending to do that. My statements do not, in any way, mean I now support them. But just as I have defended a certain politician, who I can't stand, I also defend them, who I have no interest in.

I was intrigued by this same issue, and so did some research on it. Some of my work is based on research by Ernest L. Martin (his work here), and some is from what I worked on my own. Following is a summary of what I found. The Mosaic Law was very specific, the aspect of the tithe being no different. The tithe was instituted so that the tribe of Levi would be supported because they owned no property and could not raise crops or livestock. If you read the details of the tithe you'll see it specifies crops and animals. These tithes were to be brought to the Temple in Jerusalem and put into the storehouse. This was modified slightly, but basically that was it. In Malachi there is a description of them NOT doing this. There is no mention of contributing money even though there was money then; some people did work for money. The only time money is involved is if the person lives so far away from the Temple that it would be impractical to bring the animal or crop tithe. In that case, they were to sell their tithe, travel to the Temple, and then purchase the proper tithe. That was what the money changers, the ones Jesus drove out and threw down their tables, were there for. An important detail that is often missed or ignored was that this was for the nation of Israel only, not for the gentiles. In the new testament Paul never mentions the tithe. The monetary sharing among the believers was on a local level, to those that had need. At one point Paul does help gather a large sharing for Jerusalem from among the believers in Corinth and the surrounding area, because there was a famine in Israel. This is done only once, and it is not referred to as a tithe. There is actually less validity today for the tithe than there is for honoring the Passover. That's because the Passover meal isn't dependent on any conditions, so for a person still following the law honoring the Passover is okay. But the tithe is dependent on conditions. There is no longer a tribe of Levi conducting religious work at the Temple - there is no Temple. So to tithe as described in the Mosaic law is actually illegal today because there is no way to send it to the Temple. I hope this helps.

Interesting that you bring this up. My friend and I have been looking at quantum physics and, as it turns out, it fits perfectly with what Jesus Christ said about believing, and also what it says in Psalms about guarding your heart because out of it are the issues of life. I have always believed that science is pretty good at explaining how things work. For example, chemistry explains the reactions of mixing certain chemicals, and physics explains action/reaction. But until recently they couldn't tell us why, at the root of it, these things work this way. But quantum physics points out very clearly that there is a spiritual energy in everything. So, while the bible tells us what to do and the benefits of that, quantum physics is now explaining what is happening at the microscopic level and smaller. Invisible, in fact. And from what I've seen so far there is nothing indirect about the relationship to "things of God".

My life experience both in TWI and outside of it has shown me that there are many people that prefer to be led. That's why there are still so many people involved with TWI and all of the offshoots. They either don't want to, or don't know how to, do their own research. And I mean real research, not re-searching what was published by TWI or the offshoots. (That was such a stupid concept) Several months ago I stepped away from R&R. I can't even bring myself to listen to the recorded teachings on their web site. Instead, a few of us just get together and actually research topics of interest to the group, or if one of us has been working on something and wants help with it then we do that together. The give and take is wonderful, and it is done without anyone having authority of any sort. Sometimes, we reach a consensus, and we leave there electrified! I can honestly say of the 20+ years going to fellowship I never left feeling electrified.

Interesting. I threw those out as soon as I got them, every year. It made no sense to me that a ministry that taught when Jesus Christ was born would send out Christmas cards. I wasn't involved with TWI at that point. Who is the teacher? LCM? I used to like his teaching style when I first started going to fellowship, but his ego started pouring out of him and ruined it.

As of just a few years ago, the term "believer" had devolved to mean someone standing with TWI. This is what was promulgated from the upper levels. But we did have some individuals in my fellowship that understood there were believers all over the world that had nothing to do with TWI.