Kathy Niclaus

As I've said before, it took me over 15 years to come to this site and then join and post, and I only pop in sporadically and then post in spurts. The same goes for the R&R Facebook group: I had asked to join two years ago and had made candid remarks in one of the original posts and left it. The good thing to come of it was that Lewellyn Hallett friended me on FB. Prompted by remarks I read here yesterday, and remembering what a total smarmy gratuitous kiss up Michael Fort is, I decided to take a peek today. Sure enough, a Way-style sanitizing has been done of all the comments there. Comments have been disabled retroactively for two plus years, deleted except for those that reinforce the desired narrative, and as stated here, everyone just echoes the rhetoric of TWI from the past 52 plus years. Skimming through the intact remarks, I thought that it's a shame it's a closed group. A link could be posted at a poison control emergency site when inducing vomiting is appropriate, because reading those remarks would certainly do the trick. The only detraction is that bulimics would find it accessible. How willfully and deliberately F-ing stupid can people be? I left the group today. I don't care that they have 896 members now and maybe someone I really liked and cared about might be among them, I'm not going to go through the members list. "Oh I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused..." Elvis Costello The Angels Want To Wear My Red Shoes

Yeah, I'm going there. WTF, I had to listen to how evil it was for twenty years, and then pretty much continued to believe it was unnatural for over another decade plus. I was never antagonistic towards gay men, I undersheparded (oh jeez, TWI lingo) several, just lesbians got on my nerves because a lot of them had such chips on their shoulders. Around the same time I was reading Dr. Bart Ehrman's books and learning that a LOT more of the NT was obfuscated/mistranslated/added to than what TWI taught, making me question so much of what I had accepted as truth which NEVER came true (like the promise in Peter that the chaste conversation of the faithful believing wife winning over the apatheia husband; yeah, right, it doesn't work when he's a bona fide sociopath) I was also learning about Chimerism. I had returned to college and was majoring in Biology for Pre-Med, wanting to be a Physician's Assistant. For those of you who don't know, Chimerism is what happens is when in the uterus, a woman has two fetuses that are developing. At the embryonic stage, one of them will die, and be absorbed by the other. It might be the same sex, it might be the opposite sex. When this happens, the one absorbed has it's own DNA and coding for traits and even the mapping, etc. During the process of gestation, as the remaining fetus grows, it has two distinct sets of DNA, and different organs in the body will have different DNA. This may include reproductive organs. It however also affects paired organs, like eyes. That's why you get a person, or animals with two different colors of eyes- like David Bowie, or a cat. I am totally serious. When I first learned about Chimerism, the first thought that came to my mind was that maybe it is the reason why someone is born with the sexual organs of a man, but is attracted to men instead of women. Some part of his body that produces hormones has the DNA from a female twin, and he is a Chimera. I was discussing it with someone, and he was telling me that a woman he dated had a brother who was found to have a fully formed twin in one of his testicles. (there are other sorts of developmental aberrations that form that are like undeveloped twins called terratomas, you can do an internet search to learn about them.) There was a child custody case where a woman who had given birth to several children was given a DNA test regarding to paternity in conjunction with a support order, and the DNA did not match, so protective services actually removed the children she had proof of giving birth to from her home. It was not until research was done and discovery yielded information about a similar case involving Chimerism that different tissue from her body was tested and matched that her children were returned to her. In addition to being a possible explanation for homosexual attraction, Chimerism could also be an explanation for gender identity that differs from the gender assignment given at birth, and the desire for gender reassignment surgery. Of course I speak strictly from a scientific point of view, for those who are of a scientific mind, it certainly is interesting and makes a compelling argument for nature over nurture. Anyone who believes in the Bible will find it tedious no doubt . Though I will add that David Charles Craley has written a book that shares his latest take on what the meaning of Romans chapter one is regarding homosexuality, and it diverges from his first book "The Hope of Glory (In Search of The Light)" I am attaching a research paper; it's not particularly light reading but it's not ponderous. it's an e-pdf so I think it's a link only save. Dual-gender_macrochimeric_tissue_discordance_is_predicted_to_be_a__significant_cause_of_human_homose(1).pdf

I do have something to say on this topic. In 1995, as part of an elaborate ruse to terminate communication between me and someone in another state who, unbeknownst to me at the time, was being abused by clergy, myself and my husband were asked to excuse ourselves from fellowship to put ourselves under the care of Bob Darnell, but then escalated to "not being welcome at the Way" by Ohio Limb Coordinator Dave Patterson under the most dubious of circumstances. We were totally blindsided, having not done anything unseemly at all. We would get information here and there as to what was going on, with each new doctrinal atrocity being taught absolutely flooring us. We even sat in our car for six nights on that road that Bob Wierwille lived on to listen to the ROA 95 teachings on AM radio, stunned. We lived in St. Mary's, and when someone from HQ would encounter us in public, they would run away on the other side of the street or another aisle in the store, with the exception of a very few people who obviously were not totally buying into Martindale's shiite. Finally in Spring of 1996 word got to us that Martindale was talking crap about someone at Corps Night and that John Shroyer had enough and got up and walked out. Well, John was ordained and recognized as Corps but he never was in residence, and I had always admired him because he was to me always the epitome of a real pastor. A down to earth guy who took care of people, didn't preen and fawn, didn't flaunt and vaunt himself. He had been made to give up his great house in St Mary's that he had for years and sent to Florida, where really good close friends of mine raved about how well he cared for people. I was so glad that someone finally had the balls to stand up to the maniacal narcissist. I phoned John and he told me that Mike Magel, of Premiere Labels and Word in Business reknown, and Frank Connerty, of Prison Outreach had also been on Martindale's smack talking list, and gave me their numbers. It was great because Frank was right there in St. Mary's. Well, as you know, those three guys started a splinter group, the topic of this thread. The group is the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. But I was there from the very start, and I can tell you at the beginning it did not follow the track that John Lynn, and Vince Finnegan, and Dan Moran, and a lot of these other clowns took. For starters, it wasn't John's idea. He and had Maryann moved back to Ohio. At what point, I don't know- I don't know if they had already been called back when he walked out of the service, because I know that in August of 1996 Bob Moynihan sent out a monthly newsletter in Florida calling John a "Unfaithful Servant" because Gail Winegarner visited us in St. Mary's with his son Fritz and showed it to us. (Gail called Bless Patrol "The Gestapo.") John was working for a water softener company, selling water softener units. To my knowledge, he had always had a job for most of his life, even though he was ordained clergy. Getting back on topic, it was Mike Magel's idea to start a ministry. Premiere Label was the label company he had sold (if memory serves) that he talked about at Word in Business in 1993. When the non-compete was fulfilled, he started another label company, Star Label. He told John that if John wanted to start a ministry, Mike would back him. John said let's just do a fellowship. So, a handful of us started meeting in the lunchroom Star Label every Sunday. We wanted it, there was no hard sell or coaxing. People were hurting because they were getting kicked out and abused left and right. There was a book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church" by Jeff Van Vonderen that John recommended. It really summed up what The Way used to recruit, retain, and abuse followers, and the template is applicable to many types of abusive relationships. Before you knew it, the lunch room was not big enough, a place had to be rented, and people from other states were constantly contacting John. Yes, they made the decision to incorporate, but they also made it flexible, so that if they needed to add or change, they would do it. I was an eyewitness for the first few years, and they definitely kept it real. Of course, my regular involvement predated before all the lurid details of VPW's sexual predation coming out; Kevin and Sarah Guigou first started coming around in late 1997. I was regularly active up until I divorced and left Ohio in February of 1999, when I went to New Jersey and then onto South Africa. After that, I would make it back whenever I was in the states for large scale events or visiting Ohio, getting down to the fellowship center that was built and dedicated in 1998, a modestly sized building. My last visit was in 2006, after a five year absence, and having not seen John for four years since he had visited New Jersey. He passed away a few weeks later. Judging from the website, there seems to be more of an element of rigidity to the group now than there was when he was alive; I remember on the day of the dedication in 1998, him talking about that what was important was how a person lived, and treated other people, and so what if someone believed in the trinity. He said it was okay to believe in the trinity. He used to also make a point of saying it didn't matter if people didn't tithe, that it wasn't a requirement. In 1998 he published a booklet titled "Compassion." something I used to gift people, something no one has ever complained about receiving, regardless of their religion. He also once suggested people read the book "In His Steps" Really, what John posited people do was so opposite of what had been indoctrinated by the Way, and a lot of the splinters. I can honestly say that with him, it was never about the money. PS/Addendum: Hey, Michael Fort, if you ever come here to lurk, I just want you to know that every time I've ever heard Bob Dylan sing "Like A Rolling Stone" for the past 24 years, I thought of you, because I knew your day was going to come. And Oh, By the way, fornicate you.

I have a lo shanta remark- In 1983, my local twig coordinator wrote out a birthday card for me from him and his wife Patty, and this is what it said- Love you now, love you later, love you like a lo shonta potato. LOLOLOL! I found out later that summer at the Rock that he had been blowing weed on the sly.

Ugh. On my phone it seemed to be placing my new topic in with my snarky one from over a year ago where I posted the article about Ohio legalizing recreational weed and I said maybe now the people at HQ could relax. Now I just want to delete a bunch of these misplaced and redundant posts ( except for the funny grasshopper reply I received) and I have not figured out how to do that either. You would think this is 1995 me learning Windows 95.

What's going on? I am doing something wrong because I am trying to ask the group a question unrelated to a prior post but I was directed to choose a tag and reply to myself?

Upon seeing this pop up on my phone, my first thought was "Oh good- maybe now all those overwound people at HQ can relax."

Upon seeing this pop up on my phone, my first thought was "Oh good- maybe now all those overwound people at HQ can relax."

To the person whose post follows my recent post about Hirschfeld- if you click on the first link I provide the most recent information is there.

Well well well. The topic of Hirschfeld came to mind earlier today after an acrimonious exchange with a former WC17 member and Gunnison staffer on someone's FB wall. Upon reviewing the vitriolic ex- WC 17 members profile, and seeing that he is the CEO and President of an LLC investment group, I Googled his company. It was started in 2008 in Centennial, CO. That triggered my memory. Adam Hirschfeld moved from Castle Rock, CO to Centennial, CO. Subsequently he was indicted in 2015 for securities fraud for an 18 month period between 2010-2011. He also failed to inform clients that he was under investigation at the time for prior violations: https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dora/Adam-Edward-Hirschfeld-indicted As if that is not enough, he is now a defendant in a 2017 civil suit brought by former employer DTE: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/21968613/DTC_Energy_Group,_Inc_v_Hirschfeld_et_al So the plot thickens. Hirschfeld's first business was based out of his home. WC17 guy is running an investment corporation with a listed address as his Centennial address. My advice to investors? Go to Vanguard.

LOL, remember Steve Martin in "The Jerk" eating his Cup O' Pizza? Pie in a cup- it's the natural progression for Grease Spotters on the go.

Hey since this is a cafe can I get a piece of pie with that coffee? LOL that is a memory of Auglaize and Shelby counties- little luncheonettes that ran afternoon "Pie and Coffee" specials, with a bunch of farmers sitting around the counter.

Totally- I agree- what's up with that?

I just skimmed the recommended thread. The focus seems to be on the Remini series; I don't know if many are aware of the HBO documentary Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief. It has content not included in the Remini series as well as topics covered in the series, albeit in a much more condensed form.

Thanks Twinky. I have a Tuxedo cat myself.

I saw that someone started a forum topic but received no replies (that I could see, I am new to navigating this site) so I thought I would throw the topic out. Yes I have seen two seasons of the series; that happened after my initial viewing of the HBO documentary in 2015. The bulk of my post is not about the similarities of the men but the similarities of the organizations they started. Particularly the practices, sub groups, and general mode of recruiting and retaining followers.

In April 2016 I stumbled across a Facebook account titled "The Way International: we used to be cult members." I posted on the comment wall about the similarities between two religious organizations that began post WWII- The Way International and The Church of Scientology. Since parallels have been recently mentioned in the thread about R&R, I have chosen to post my comments here (which include my opinion) for what it's worth: "There is an excellent documentary available on HBO that is quite elucidating. (Cable or Satellite subscription are not required to view it. HBO NOW is the recently added streaming channel that can be viewed on a computer, tablet, phone, Roku, and other modalities. There is even a free trial period offered.) The documentary is titled "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief." What does this have to do with The Way International? In my opinion, everything. Viewing the documentary, I saw so very many parallels between the inception, formation, programs, and insider jargon used in Scientology, and those used by The Way International. During the post-WWII period when Victor P. Wierwille was the minister of the church in Van Wert, and after the "Vesper Chimes Hour" radio show had begun broadcast, a pulp fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard had an epiphany. That epiphany was that a good way to become wealthy was to start a church and a religion. He wrote "Dianetics" and started traveling the USA, teaching seminars and classes. Hubbard exaggerated his experience as a WWII Navy officer, embellished the story, and included that in his self-presentation. Both The Way International (hereafter to be referred to as TWI) and the Church of Scientology ( hereafter to be referred to as COS) started with a singular individual who rose to prominence as the founder, and prophet figure of the organization. Both Wierwille and Hubbard obfuscated facts about their experiences and education. Both utilized a multi-step program of offering classes and sessions that came at a price, each with the promise of increased insight and knowledge of things not commonly known outside of the organization. Both started an organization for the most dedicated of volunteers based on a military program: Hubbard started the SEA Org, the COS equivalent of TWI Way Corps. Both programs required intensive, in residence training that utilized sleep deprivation, long hours of labor, and concentrated indoctrination. Both programs required that the volunteer members join for life; both programs instilled in volunteers a sense of giving their lives in service not only to the organization, but also to humanity and the world on a whole. For those persons not able to participate in the dedicated service program, the teachings and level of knowledge usually afforded only to those individuals was available for a price, after the applicant was recommended by a leader based on their proven devotion. In the COS, this was the program of attaining levels of being Clear, until a person was an operationg Thetan. In TWI, this program was known as The University of Life. Both organizations enticed people with the dangling carrot of a knowledge reserved only for the most dedicated and elite. In both organizations, the founding leader was alternately referred to by their initials- in the COS, L. Ron Hubbard is affectionately called "LRH" and in TWI, Victor Paul Wierwille is known as "VPW." Both organizations engage in the practice of labeling persons outside of the organization, especially those who are former adherents. Both organizations issue unofficial decrees to active members to remove themselves from the company of former members, and actively cause divisions in families. The COS categorizes people as "SP" for suppressive person, in the same fashion that TWI uses "M&A" for mark and avoid. Both organizations replaced the founder with an even more malevolent and controlling leader; the COS with David Miscavage, TWI first with L. Craig Martindale, and most recently, Rosalie Rivenbark. Both organizations have had active investigation by the IRS, and had suspended non-profit church status for a period of years until a legal agreement was reached. Both organizations impress upon their adherents the importance of donating to support the organization, and expect a generous portion of the adherents' wages and assets. My opinion is that Victor Wierwille heard about Hubbard and to put it figuratively, took notes. Both organizations cohesively laid their blueprint in the 1950s. I don't think it is a coincidence." Addendum: "Scientology believes that humans are inhabited by intangible lifeforms who influence their thoughts and actions, and that only by auditing can a person become clear. The Way teaches that people's brains and bodies host intangible lifeforms in the way of devil spirits, who must be divested by stringent application of doctrine, and in rare cases, cast out. Scientology teaches that an evil lord Xenu transported extraterrestrials from their home planet in aircraft that resemble DC-8 and placed them around volcanoes on earth, and then detonated hydrogen bombs causing the intangible part called Thetans to flee the alien bodies, which then in turn inhabited human bodies. The Way teaches that there is an evil lord Satan, the devil, whose fallen angels roam the earth seeking bodies to inhabit. The Way amped it up further with the doctrine of the seed of the serpent, that a person could be born again of the devil. Other parallels include both organizations' bi-lateral castigation of homosexuals; both organizations owning multiple locations of real estate, some of which serve as recreational areas for adherents; (okay yes, all churches do that as well.) Both organizations place a very high emphasis on adherents actively recruiting new followers. Both organizations are opposed to the medical practice of Psychiatry and the counseling practice of Psychology."

Since I joined in order to post to a different forum, I thought putting some background information on myself would be a good preface in case someone thinks "so who is this person who wrote this?" I am posting comments I made 20 months ago on a Facebook page called "The Way International: we used to belong to a cult." The topic are the similarities I found between VPW/TWI and L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. So here's my brief bio: I come to this site once or twice a year, having been out (thanks Dave Patterson and Michael Fort for the favor!) in excess of 22 years now. I was active in CFF from the group's inception but a visit to the annual Family Reunion in 2006 made me aware of the herd mentality that is prevalent in groups. Since then extensive reading of the works of Bart Ehrman, the bona fide living expert on the NT, in conjunction with returning to college and learning empirical science have rendered me an apostate. I openly admit it. Agnostic is as far as I choose to identify; like Bill Maher I profess to belong to "The Church of 'I don't know." Ten years ago if I was reading this I would think how tragic, how can a person not believe, but I no longer believe that any religion conclusively has a divine doctrine. I am not ruling out the possibility but I no longer believe that the bible is the source of truth.