rrobs

You might be right, but I'm not sure. Ask an armadillo.

I give up. Thanks for your insights. Real quick though; one thing you say is definitely wrong. "You refuse to negotiate or even acknowledge there’s other alternatives, options or the possibility that your idea is faulty" I guess it must look that way (or you wouldn't have said it), but the fact is I have learned from things you've said. My thinking has evolved from all of this. Sorry if I've ruffled any feathers in the process. God bless.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I learned something from it. I left out the details that makes all the difference. Acts 17 is indeed not a valid basis for my argument. I'll always remember this post in my future studies. Sometimes I go too fast. Gotta slow down, especially in handling God's word. I wondered at myself for coming back to GSC when I was obviously the square peg. Now I think it was to learn what you just taught me. That's great! Thanks again! God bless....

Thanks for the tip, but I don't think the Bible needs to be argued over. I'm not into apologetics. Come on now Rocky, are you telling me you don't know the general message of the Bible? I think it says things generally go better when aligned with the Bible as opposed to going against it, which society for the most part, does. All IMO, but I doubt I'm alone in my assessment. I'm also trying real hard to see how the methods of argument people make here are much different than mine. Other than being on flip sides of the coin, they seem pretty much alike. The Bereans didn't demand Paul back up all his claims (Acts 17:11). They searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true or not. They were more noble than the Thessalonians who wanted to string him up. Just curious, how long did it take you to complete that course on arguments you mentioned?

I guess that is the crux of the matter. My mistake. Take care...

What? A lot of unproven claims there. I "clearly" lift myself up? You know my motives (1 Sam 16:7)? What other motives am I hiding? Did you see the post where I said I've learned something from GSC, where I said I do indeed need to provide documentation for what I say? Is that not trying to go half way and trying to discuss things lioke adults? I know it's from VP (I think), but I can't help thinking that when you point a finger at me you are pointing 3 back at yourself. VP or the devil, that's pretty true (Rom 2:1). I've not once attacked anybody personally here. I've never questioned anybody's motives as you question mine. What is your proof for saying the Bible does not dismiss academia? I gave proof it does. Here it is again, 1 Cor 2:5 (academia = wisdom of men). No corps, no WOW, just staff. I even skipped most Sunday services. Wasn't even in a twig at HQ. So you got that wrong also. How about you? When I worked there I said on more than one occasion that the way corps was fairly robotic. It got back to LCM and I saw flames from his eyes after he threw his sunglasses onto the ground and broke them. I was surprised I didn't get fired, but I didn't. I guess they needed a pilot that bad. So if I don't know more than you (which I never claimed I did)? Then you must know more than me? No ego there! I'm ethnocentric? Are the cultures of Florida and California that different? All I care about is attention? Really, you are sure of that? I sure as hell don't need attention/approval from GSC. Definitely you are barking up the wrong tree there. I've failed? (Is 55:11). Just too much crap to even answer!

OK. So I at least got half way to approved posting procedures. But after all this why hasn't anybody told me where my post if off the mark? I know there is no obligation to do so, but if it's that bad, somebody could easily proved me wrong. This could have been settled 3 pages ago had somebody did that. A prosecutor can't just say, "He committed murder," and then have the jury declare the guy guilty. There has to be proof of some kind. I would think that anybody that disagrees with my post should explain why they disagree instead of just saying I offered no proof which is really a dubious claim at best anyway. Doesn't the general message of the Bible carry any weight? Does that general message align with my post or not? So again, where is my post off? If anybody can tell me chapter and verse where I'm off, then I will change my thinking on the matter. As it stands now, I still think the Bible says that a society that believes God is better than one does not believe in God. That is all I was trying to say. True or not true? I don't feel we are trading insults. Just don't agree on some things.There's a difference.

I think you are right. Eph 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace, that it is a gift, and not of works. I think repentance is works in the sense that it is something we do, not something God did for us. I myself have to repent or change my mind (metanoao). That's my job, not God's. God made me whole, not it's up to me to repent (or not, free will). Probably more to it, but that's what I see for now.

No. That's why I said I was going off topic. I was just suggesting a strategy that could work in all kinds of life's arenas other then physical confrontations. Maybe typically most arguments are won by beating the smaller opponent with a blunt object as you rightly suggested, but it may not work against said smaller opponent who knows the principles of kung fu and applies them in an argument. Maybe debate teams use a similar strategy sometimes. I don't know. On the surface, you could say that David used Kung Fu against Goliath and he didn't do it by brute force. He'd lost that one if he did. Of course, the real reason he beat Goliath was because he trusted in God, so it's academic.

Going off topic for a second; In the arena of physical fighting, usually the bigger and stronger defeats the smaller and weaker. I think that more or less aligns with your statement. Tai Chi/Kung Fu was invented for the express purpose of changing that. Both are arts where finesse is used instead of brute force to enable the smaller and weaker to overcome the bigger and stronger. There may be some parallel there in the spiritual realm.

All of this got me to thinking. People here are right, I should not just make claims without some documentation. So here are some of verses that inspired me to begin with, and the challenges I got at GSC made me look up more. Ps 33:10-21, Ps 144:11-15, Ps 146:5, Prov 28:2, Prov 29:4, Prov 29:18, Ecc 10:16-17, 2 Chron 7:14 I believe that the central message of my original post can be justified by these verses. There are others probably, but this is a good start I think. It was really a good exercise and I think I learned something. Take care...

I believe what I posted.You seem not to. Let's just leave it at that.

I already did. That makes us brothers. Yeah!

The claims you made in the first paragraph are baseless and void of any validity, therefore the rest of your reply is without a valid basis. All I hear is nothing more than standard GSC speak. None of the replies have an original thought in them. How ironic is that?

What must I do to be saved?

It would be quicker for you to provide chapter and verse that would disprove the post. It would be quicker because there are none! Believe what you want.

I didn't ask you, the reader, to support my claims. I asked to to show me where I'm off. So far nothing and I don't think there will be anything because what I said is in perfect alignment with the word. If you don't think so, then tell me where. Personally, If I read something and want to know more about the subject, I don't hound the author to give me more information. I find it myself if I'm that interested. But you appear completely uninterested in even considering if my post is valid or not. You seem to know it's not. That's your choice and you have every right to make such a choice. The onus is not on me to convince your. Just curious, what do you believe? I know it's none of my business and all that, so if I understand if you don't want to share it with me.

It's a virtual trophy I guess. Still, I got one and you didn't. But don't worry, you'll still get by.

I thought I'd save you the time in looking for things that Luther, Wycliffe, etc said and give you a few quotes that would back up what I said in the post. Then I had an epiphany. Those guys are no more nor no less of a man than myself. As far as I can tell, you take the things I said as false. Fine. So why would you change your mind if they said the same things? So why bother with church history at all? So let's confine our discussion to what the word says. If you don't want to do that I understand. But if you do, please tell me from the word where anything I said is not aligned with that word. I'm not saying I got divine relation in that post, so maybe I'm missing something. If so, please tell me from the word. No Bullinger, pope, deacon, sociology professor, PHD, or any human source at all; just chapter and verse.

Any basic church history book has all you want to know.

I posted this same paper on two other Christian forums. Totally different response from that of GSC. All very positive. I even got a "trophy" on one site. Yeah me! That tells me it's not the content, but the one writing the content. Any other explanations?

No, it wouldn't. Better to wait until it's all over.

From you: So again, what, in practical terms, are you doing, rrobs? I might be dense, but that looks more like jumping than responding. In any case, I tried to answer you as honestly and graciously as I could. If I missed the mark, please excuse my ignorance. Have a nice getaway this weekend!

I just finished reading A Tale of Two Cities for the second time. I have two hobbies, electronics and kung fu. I'm a volunteer fire fighter. So now go back and read all my stuff. You should be more receptive now that you know I have secular side also. No? As far as PFAL, I don't think I've said anything that countless others haven't said way before VP. I believe that the prevailing sentiment at GSC is that VP plagiarized everything. So just pretend that my sources comes from BW (Before Wierwille). I've been using the Bible as my source, not PFAL. Maybe that will make it all more palatable? The world does not, nor ever has, revolved around VP or TWI. I really think that many at GSC are more influenced by TWI than I am. It's as though VP and TWI shapes your every thought. You just can't seem to forget. I know there are reasons for that, and I'm truly sorry for any pain and suffering they may have caused you, but it' is nonetheless a mistake to paint everybody else with the same brush. Some people have indeed gotten over it and yet still believe the word. Why is that so hard to understand? The funny part is that I sincerely did not realize I was posting in this forum. I've been posting in the doctrine section all along and that is where I meant to post this one. I just made a simple mistake. No big deal. "What must I do to be saved?"

Pretty sure Jesus' main message was to believe God. Good luck trying to emulate his life. You won't be able to. Remember, he never sinned. Unless you can say that you've never sinned, you have already failed in your efforts to emulate him. I did answer your question by inviting you to come visit me and see for yourself. But if you can't do that I'll just say that to the best of my ability I keep God's word central in my thoughts. What good does that do society? Deut 30:19, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: The world as a whole chooses death. You (assuming you are born again) and I can choose life and we do that by believing the scriptures and acting on them. Whatever light of the word shines in my heart (and yours) shines through the darkness of this world. If nobody believed the word, the world would be a dark place indeed. But fortunately, each community has some people who believe and act on God's word and that makes that community and the world as a whole a little less dark. To put it more succinctly, Matt 5:14-15, 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.