TLC

That's not what some have said here, but it's your spin (evidently) on what everyone says that you either don't care to consider or simply disagree with. All (meaning, ALL) of what actually happens (or happened, historically speaking) is NOT what the Bible, nor anything else, is capable of recording and communicating. Hence, anything and EVERYTHING that you or I or anyone "thinks" they have or know about history and/or what happened in the past, at it's very best can only be said to convey all the relevant or pertinent information about what happened. And the relative completeness of what is (or can be) communicated about what happened, is probably always going to retain a certain subjective element reelecting the communicator's perspective on the situation. Which, believe it or not, is going take us right straight to the question of how (or whether) each of us perceive reality in the same way. So, scoff at the idea that two people can perceive "what is happening" differently all you want. In the end, you might be in for a rather startling or rude awakening. Reality is one thing. Virtual reality is another. Augmented reality is another. are there other unnamed or unknown realities? how sure are you of what reality is, Raf? the mind of man is a tricky thing... You state and claim Adam and Eve are fictitious. I, on the other hand, disagree. And you can no further prove to me they are fictitious then I can prove to you they are not.

As skewed as his teachings on cf'n'SEX were, they pale in comparison to the widespread and very, very deep rooted damage resulting from the far more well known (and evidently still popular) "Way Tree" teachings.

LOL. Tell me you really and truly don't see what a crock of BS that "spin" is.... Just imagine if someone else tried using those lines on you, how pi$$ed you'd be at them claiming that they weren't really calling you stupid. They're just observing that you are.

well, I looked, but couldn't find said tapes. perhaps they were some time later in his teachings from Gartmore. however, I did just find this "open view of God" outline (by Schoenheit) that might have some degree of overlap with it. While I don't completely agree with it (as it seems to allow too much room for discounting the knowledge and/or wisdom of God), I do think that it points towards some things that are probably true, and do have merit.

Given that I did not (and am not) in any way or to any degree denying scholarship, nor the history, nor the reality of George Washington's existence, your statement is merely evidence of your own failure to perceive or acknowledge the extreme level of certainty within me as to the historical existence of Adam and Eve. In other words, as certain as you (very plainly) think and confess to believing in the existence of George Washington, I am saying that I am MORE certain in my thinking and believing in the historical existence of Adam and Eve. Seems you don't see the difference. But, perhaps you'll put that in your pipe and... ponder it.

Short answer is this, Raf. I suspect that you deny there being anything more "real" than that which is or can be detected and known by the natural senses. I, on the other hand, believe that everything that is and can be known by the natural senses is only PART of what is real. You can call or label my position as "obfuscation" if you want (which is little more than a continued denial of it), but it certainly doesn't describe it well, nor change it. And there are plenty of things that are untrue if or when viewed from my perspective, undoubtedly far more than you can possibly imagine. Furthermore, I don't have any more difficulty believing in the literal existence of Adam and Eve than I do of George Washington. In fact, you'd probably have an easier time trying to convince me that George Washington never existed and that someone else was the first president of the U.S.

Huhn? Since when isn't there room to fall short in understanding (or, miss the understanding of) either sections of, or the entirety of, scripture? (heck, I thought - perhaps mistakenly - that even the most inflated "know-it-all" savants of twi would, or at least could, recognize there's always a possibility that they might be missing something there. Maybe I'm from a different era, or planet, or universe, or ...something.) Well, it is history. (I've never - or at least, not that I remember - ever thought otherwise.) However, more precisely, I (now) think of it more as spiritual history. In other words, history presented from a spiritual perspective. But communicated in physical (or "worldly") terms. To say that it is only (or exclusively) "allegorical" sounds more like an effort to extricate spiritual things from it, rather than seeing the overall picture that is painted as the evidence of an otherwise invisible spiritual reality. yeah, okay. maybe that went through one ear and out the other. so... I'll try to say it another way. Maybe some (or many, even) of the "individual pieces" of the story aren't going to have real straightforward or obvious meanings, unless or until they are viewed as integral parts of a much bigger picture. So, if and/or when you get stuck on or obsess over what certain of the pieces might really mean, you won't (and can't) see how they fit into the spiritual story. (In other words, you can't see the forest for the trees.) For far too many years, I was rather stuck on trying to use word studies (Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, etc...) to "unlock" meanings. I'm not saying that such efforts always go unrewarded. They're simply "inadequate" in and of themselves most of the time, and many times actually get in the way of looking at it and considering it in the light of other known truth.

With all the emphasis and effort that has put into expounding 2Tim. 2:15, one might think there's little left to be understood there. Yet, frankly speaking, my view of it has changed rather radically from what it once was years ago, when I was so want to "dig into" the Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic... searching for a much deeper and/or more significant truth in scripture. In part, because I've seen some of the error that can (and so often does) result from an overly (and overtly) zealousness to focus on "the text" of what is written, and the elevation of it above what might be described as a much more "simplistic" understanding resulting from a more careful consideration of who it was (or is) written to, and why it may have been written. Personally, I think this verse in 2 Timothy relates very closely to what is written in Philippians 1:9,10. But, perhaps that would make more sense to some of you if the word "excellent" in verse 10 were translated (more accurately) as "different." Because many things that Paul spoke of and wrote about were, in fact, quite different from what was coming out of the church that was in Jerusalem. Maybe then this "right dividing" or separating that is spoken of of 2 Timothy makes plenty good sense, given Paul's prayer in Philippians for their love to abound yet more and more... which appears to be a prerequisite for approving things that are "different" (I.e., needing separation.)

okay, ...I clicked on it. (thinking, it's really bad, it shouldn't take too long to figure it out.) and yep... less that a minute into it, and it was pretty clear. (and a few minutes more of it was all I could stomach...) In short, if you are convinced (or persuaded) that the church (i.e., the called out) of the body of Christ start on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), I suppose it's a piece of cake for certain talented or charismatic leaders to likewise convince or persuade you - in one way or another - of incorporating and equating certain portions and aspects of the law into your own senses driven servitude. In other words, your obedience to the spirit of God within you is thwarted and/or replaced with an obedience to the spirit in others. Seriously now... merely try looking up the word "obedience" in the church epistles, and see for yourself who or what it refers to. Obedience to... some certain household ? Surely you jest, if you say that is something aligned with what is written. Ah, but this "teaching" was no joke. He was as serious as a heart attack when he equated it with your "obedience to God."

Speculating? Okay, if that's the game, here's a little more for you to ponder... Which of any of these people produced, provided, or in any way "manufactured" (for lack of a better word) a service (or product) outside of TWI that could (or would) have resulted in a means of income (or wealth, if you prefer) that any of them are now in a position that they are (evidently) independently wealthy? Aside from some sort of sizeable inheritance (which, granted, some might have been the beneficiary of some caring and thoughtful parents or relative), how is it that you suppose any of them manage to live in a society (and world) that essentially runs on money? What hidden "saddle making" skills might you suppose that any of them have or utilize? Or, who (or what) is it that you suppose actually funds their present lifestyle (if not the same - or very similar to that which did - while in twi)?

Might strike you as rather odd, but personally, I'm inclined towards thinking that the first three chapters of Genesis might be some of the most misunderstood scriptures in the Bible, and I have probably spent as much (perhaps more) time pondering their meaning than I have nearly any other section of scripture. Although the way I view it now is far different than it was years ago (when closer to the doctrines and teaching of twi), and is still some distance away from being perfect or as complete as it might be for others, it does give me a certain perspective on it that I find extraordinarily difficult at times to convey in terms that can be quickly or easily understood. God is a spirit (according to scripture.) Man is not. And that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Between spirit and flesh is... what, exactly? What is the divide, and/or what is the bridge between these two? How and or why did it start, or get to be this way? And once separated, how does (or is) anything that is spiritual in nature communicate with (or get communicated to) that which is by nature, flesh... that sees/hears/thinks ONLY in terms that are "fleshly"? Hence, when something is referred to as being "literally true"... does that axiomatically restrict it to something that is (or can be) only known to the flesh? Why can't something be "literally true" if or when specifically intended to refer to a spiritual reality? Ah, well... the difficulty falls back onto our expression and communication of it. So, Genesis begins the task of communicating the whys and wherefores of certain spiritually realities to a fleshly mind. An impossibility, perhaps? Or, perhaps not. As, it can (and often does) entail the usage of words and phrases with dual meanings. Confuse, mix up, and/or otherwise exchange the two, and it positively looks like certain errors.

Actually, that's not true, as I tend to look quite carefully for the congruity in what someone else says they believe. But, perhaps that's something that you don't care to do, and/or prefer to avoid dealing with.

If the author of a novel gave you pertinent information later in the story, you would undoubtedly accept it as being relevant to (or in) the beginning of it. Yet, because you don't believe that God is the sole author responsible for what is written later in the Bible, you can't and won't allow for it here. In the sense of his "attitude" being a direct reflection and indication of what he did or didn't believe, I'd probably agree. That said, I see the absence of blood in his offering as evidence that he didn't believe [God] that it was required. Let's back it up to ask what the reason might have been for any offering whatsoever. Was God actually in need of anything that man could offer? (I think not.) And if not, then what possible thoughts could have been behind Cain's offering? (Some logical reading between the lines goes a long way towards explaining what might be going on here......... but that's evidently something that most people solely trained at twi were/are either afraid to do and/or plainly suck at.) And you either completely missed or flatly chose to ignore my earlier comment that I'm inclined towards thinking that God's intervention in men's lives throughout history tends to be rather minimalistic. Perhaps it was understated. Or maybe I just didn't want to draw that much attention to it, for reason of the effort it might take to better explain it.

Given how whacked said theory is, what difference does it make where he got it from? Neither it, nor vpw's perverted opinion on what the original sin is ever made any sense.

Say what? (Psst: It was in the previous post already... but, perhaps you weren't ready to hear it.) YLT = Young's Literal Translation (in case you didn't know already.)

Of course it isn't from your perspective. (And I've never said or implied otherwise.) You make it sound like death by any atrocity is some sort of ticket to eternal life... which is ridiculous. And you're nuts if you think that's how I applied it. Given Adam's sin and that man was already expelled from Eden, why think or suppose that man should or would be so closely connected to God? I do not think or suppose that this life that we currently have was ever designed or intended as being "forever." However, I also do not think or suppose that it needed to finish or end only by death. That is, until Adam failed to preserve the purity of what was to be believed. Instead, he chose to believe the reality of his senses above that which was revealed and known to him spiritually. Part of the reality that he so elevated was the simple fact that this life is (and always was) temporal. Adam having so irreversibly damaged his own means to effectively perceive the spiritual realities of God's creation, God was then challenged with how to successfully bring spiritually impaired man across the finish line by the end of the appointed time. If you want to get lost in the weeds of how or why He did or didn't deal with anyone along the way, well... that's certainly a rather popular place to camp out in. Personally, I'm sorta inclined to think his intervention in men's lives throughout history as they "work out their own salvation" tends to be rather minimalistic. If you don't want or need help, neither do you get it. As far as why Cain's offering was refused, seems to be fairly straightforward as far as I can tell. Regardless of the fact that we (as readers) aren't informed until much later, it is made known that without blood there is no remission of sin. Even if, as you purport, Cain didn't know (or forgot) this, perhaps some alternate translation/interpretation of Gen.4:7 would clarify the probability that God reminded him of it, telling him that a sin offering (for Cain) waited for him by the door, and that he had rule over it. But, Cain chose not to believe God, or accept that, and after talking with Able, chose rather to kill him. Genesis 4:7 (YLT) Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'

did you expect it to be so different from the many other things in the Bible that do little or nothing for someone not convinced of eternal life? I vehemently disagree that this temporal life "of necessity becomes of no value compared to eternal life." Rather, I see it as both essential and formative for what that eternal life can or (forever) will be. And in light of that, is not merely some doorway or path to "defend all manner of atrocity." What it does do, however, is add a substantially different perspective and new possibilities for understanding the why and wherefores of this current life. I certainly do not see it as the answer to everything. However, from my perspective, it is without a doubt, absolutely rock-solid, guarandamteed. I crossed the Rubicon (so to speak) of that in my own life well over 50 years ago (well before I ever knew or heard of twi.) Call it a deeply personal religious experience if you want, it makes no difference whatsoever to me. After once coming face to face with (and more or less accepting) eternal separation from God, the flicker of light that suddenly ignited within me simply cannot be changed or undone.

Actually, you don't just get to say this and have it be true. That's arrogance. "My position is wise even if it makes no sense to you." Well, I didn't "just get to say" that and have it be true. I was quoting scripture, which surely you already knew. So your accusation of arrogance is false and unfounded No, not at all. But if I, in my own inherent weakness and shortness of complete understanding can make good enough sense of it, I am more than convinced that the foolishness of God is wiser than men. Whether or not I could ever communicate to you enough of my own perspective on the matter is another issue altogether. Not that it even matters one iota. Because it seems that you evidently want it completely spelled out for you in black and white. Which, I don't see being completely possible, not even in scripture. However, I do think there's a thread, woven through scripture, that paints a picture of the invisible on the canvas of believing. Sure, I can undoubtedly describe a great many things that I see to you, and how certain things make plenty of sense if or when viewed from the right perspective. But you will deny that my perspective is valid, or has any chance of being valid, because it's not how you see and think of it, or will allow room for, or if by chance my own communication of (or understanding of) some other part of it is not as complete or as thorough as you think it should be. Consider this, if you will. Fifty thousand pieces of a jigsaw puzzle are set before you. There are edge pieces, but many of the pieces appear to be similar, or have varying degrees of depth. Some of the pieces look like they ought to fit together, but they don't. Perhaps they are part of some sort of three dimensional puzzle. Or maybe it's pieces to more than one puzzle. Do you pick up a piece of it and say, this piece is a mistake, because it doesn't fit where you think it needs to or should? Or do you put it back in the pile and think, I don't yet have the right piece for this, or the right place for that? I have, some time ago, reasoned why there is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood. And perhaps my perspective on it is far less than perfect. Still, given my overall perspective on life (both as we know it, and as it was probably first in Adam) and sin (even going back that of the father of lies), it is not so difficult to think of eternal life's quality being far more significant and important than the trials and tribulations in the proving time of the temporal life currently bestowed upon us.

What, you think he only once used that Jedi mind trick? ha! You can spin the rest of my post however you want. It doesn't change it one iota.

...and still think and do what [so many] did ? well, here's a free thought or two (which might be worth no more than they cost you...) try doing a little research (ala google, if you like) on narcissism, and wrap it (i.e., the effect of it, or how it works) around your head for a while. trust me, you won't have to look far to see it in operation all around us... and once you "get it," the disparity so evident in a great many things might start making a whole lot more sense. which side of the tracks you come from (or have learned to see things from) can make one helluva difference. and once you know you're on "the high side" of the tracks, the other side is simply "not where you're at." although not all (high dollar) managers and politicians (just to name a few categories that come to mind) are afflicted with this... I suspect most are. some are born into it. others (especially those of higher intellect) are simply more "naturally inclined" towards it. of course, those that are "there" already are often quite adept at fostering similar features in those around them. perhaps DWBH will be so kind as to expound on why he did what he did and thought the way he thought "back in the day" when he too was on "the high side" of it, thinking (and speaking of) vpw as a moggie, in spite of being aware of those "things going on." heck, I recall a time when vpw spoke of DWBH having more love in his little pinky finger than others did in their whole body. sure must have made him feel pretty good about himself at the time, like it would have anybody, eh? then there was that time vpw gave DWBH the warning he'd better keep [something... whatever it was] it to himself (you know, in the ol' lockbox) or (maybe not these exact works) God would take it out of his hide. so yeah... I can attest to the fact that DBWH evident knew certain stuff that we (I.e., anyone on a lower side of the tracks) didn't. so, no doubt his perspective is, in many respects, quite different than most here. (and the pride that flows so easily into and through the high side of the tracks, is so familiar and comfortable... it's hard to suppress.) give DWBH some credit though, where credit is due... he rather early on recognized that breaking away from twi and "starting another ministry" wasn't the answer, and was going to go down the same road, ending up with the same problems (that these bozo's are finally admitting to.)

imo, the condition of it. different... but not all that far removed from how I think it went down. seems to be wrapped up in what she saw and accepted as the truth (i.e., "as reality.") In other words, she (and then Adam) chose to change her (their) perception of reality... to that which man has been ensnared in ever since. ...not really available or possible, imo. (it was a one way ticket, for all intents and purposes, and anything even remotely resembling it in our minds probably pales in comparison.) how Jesus Christ may have succeeded in "reversing" his perception of reality within his own life is nearly incomprehensible... but I suspect those 40 days in the wilderness would have had something to do with it. That any of us can (and do) believe in his resurrection is evidently what unlocks the door (to being able to see/believe a reality greater than what is revealed through the senses), but seems at best all we ever get are glimpses of the "reality" that Adam & Eve were probably capable of perceiving prior to the decision to elevate "another way" of seeing things to the forefront of their minds and heart. But what do I know, eh? Nothing new, nothing original... it's probably just some goofy bunch of gobbledygook for all you smart folk to pass over. Ah, well... so much for that.

Ha! It's the old pot (that's still largely clueless about who I am, or what I believe) calling the kettle black...

Well, considering it was actually a response to Mark (and not Chockfull), perhaps I should be a bit confused by why you bother to say that. But, I'm not, as Rocky's sarcasm was more than a little obvious (as uncalled for or as worthless as it might seem or be.) no, it's not my intent, but yeah, I'm not unaware that it can (and probably does) come across like that at times... especially if or when I've already made a "couple runs" at trying to make a certain point. (For the record - and maybe it's just me - I've had an exceedingly difficult time trying to communicate with Mark in the past, even when asking or stating something as plainly and clearly as I think I possibly can... so, maybe my last post to him was laden with a bit more terseness that it could or ought to have been. I just didn't want to beat around the bush with it.)

hmmm... I would probably be inclined to agree if that were intended to be addressed more specifically to the woman. But I'm not so quick to think or say that's as true or accurate with Adam. Personally, I think Adam knew full well what the issue was, and intentionally and purposefully choose to follow her lead, to believe and do what he did. Simply attributing it to "he didn't understand" actually strikes me as a form of rationalization, and that God somehow didn't do a "good enough" job of communicating to Adam what the issue really was. Agreed, as I suspect it was far greater and much more significant than that (even if something sexual between the man and woman may have resulted from it.) Well, seems I don't see or know of anywhere in the scriptures, or in life, that anything related to sexual activity honestly results in anyone becoming "wise" as a result... unless a realization of what you did possibly having been rather thoughtless or dumb somehow counts for being "wise" because you suppose that you're not as thoughtless or dumb now as you think you might have been then.

Trying to stir up a new or different way to look at something around here all to often seems to have about as much effect as shooting BB's at a Sherman tank.