MRAP

waysider and Raf: I did not get my point across when I said: "What Mike wars, I don't know what it the world you are talking about." My intent was a joke in that: I don't need are want to hear about it since Raf did not want to reveal it. Kinda like, "you didn't see that did you" and I would say, "see what?". O.K., that's strike 3 on me for trying to be witty or making a joke. Geesh, everyone's so dang (or darn if you like that better) litteral, oh yeh, it's the site. Do we have a bad joke forum somewhere? CAN WE ALL LAUGH?!

Raf: yes, it belongs in "Questioning Faith". This thread was very good but also a very long read (alot of tit-for-tat). It is/was not my intent to re-introduce it for discussion, I think everything had been said (at nasum); I did though just hafta throw in my 2 cents about the "Red Thread" which one poster had done already and that was also my take as well, it's also my opion of the matter when it comes to the gnostic issue. I just recently had read something on John 1:1 that related that verse to gnostitism (it that's a word) - it was from John Schoenheit (no intent to advertise, just stating the source). Additionally, and this was not the prime intent, point out some of the inconsistencies of the forum protocol: in hind sight, it's probably a very moot point given the 11 years of progress and am aware of some of the belief changes. I do maintain my statement on the stances you and WordWolf took at the time to bring some civility into the banter and that, in so many ways, you both continue to do to this day. Why be embarrassed, it was quite obvious how you got drawn into the frey and as we all know, after 11 years, we pick our battles with more discretion. What Mike wars, I don't know what it the world you are talking about.

Well skyrider, in my head I consider them proper nouns in addition to the past respect issue (the later is more so the case). Nah Broken Arrow, I was Navy and then eventually retired U.S. Army - my natural brother was Retired USMC (Corp): should have seen the fights he and I had when I was Navy and we were both home on leave at the same time. While on the national WOW (capitalized-take the joke) field back in 74-75 in Oshkosh, WI, all the seminars were made available (required attendance - I was O.K. with that at the time), to include CF&S (yes, it was mostly sex); it seemed to make alot of us folks a bit horny - like we really needed that at the time. There were traveling WOW corp folk who would stop into the branch every few months and run the seminars. In late 72 or very early 73 the CF&S was being run in Greenville, NC (ECU) at the NC limb HQ and those of us who traveled down there from Norfolk, VA Naval Bases were dissapointed we were not allowed to take it - we would have taken leave in order to attend - like a sailor needs to that. Sorry, I am just dragging on here. Having been in twi in my youth was a learning experience and that's just how I rack it up: an experience. Luckily, no permanent harm for me, but for others, I now see they can not say the same. As I said once, I am not really here so much for healing as I am for reading some of the great stuff on the Doctrinal Forum and to maybe find some ol'e folks I had met along the way - so far, no luck on the latter. Again, I am rambling.

Always felt I was a lesser of a believer for not having taken the AC. I had a life to live and funding did not allow me to travel to the places it was being offered - yes, not enough money to learn the word - yet, as I found out, as a Twig leader, we were doing more than folks in the Corp and many Corp grads. Yet, I should have called it game years before, I was picking up on the crap and knew better but there was the fear factor - it took a breaking point before calling it game. Shoot, if I had not been finacially supporting folks in the Corp, then I would have had money to go and take the AC. I have no idea what ever happened to the folks I supported in the Corp. Why do I keep capitalizing the "Corp"?

This thread has been a fantastic read. I was especially impressed with the dialouge when it stayed on topic but was equally interested when it got off topic. In line with the topic of the thread, my take is this: God is the same God in both the NT and the OT (forget obout the Gnostic stuff). In the OT, God needed to protect that Red Thread; you should have gotten that from a near dated post on the "Red Thread". Oh, I realize this forum thread is over 11 years old but what an eye opener to the knowledge of folks who posted on it, some of whom are still posting to this day. That's what I am doing, going through the Doctrinal Forum, starting from the oldest. I have the highest respect for so many of you - that's why I exhorted so many of you to adjust the GSC mission statement towards the docrinal arena. Hey, some of you such as WordWolf and Raf, after reading through the old posts, I have an even greater respect. Regarding this thread, it was incorrect, IMHO, to resort to name calling and getting so far off topic by side bars attacking each other even though there were periodic posts to get back on topic that were disregarded. I know this thread is 11 years old but a non-XTWI poster was provided more grace than I - maybe because I offended but if you got the time to read the extensive thread, you will see that the adversarial poster was provided more grace than I, maybe cause you were all younger in those days and more acceptable of critisism or just plain more tolerant. Just a few examples of things I was chastised for: shortening a posters handle (pretty much the norm then), getting off thread theme (in this thread, that was the norm), attacking a poster (let me count the ways). The posts went to verboten stuff like politics, attacking other religions (JW) and racism/bigotry. Well, all in all for you who were around then, if you revisit that forum thread, it will be a trip down memory lane and you will see how much you changed and stayed the same. So, before any of you dis me again, you had best read your history. God Bless and Love to you all, this is a fantastic site for learning. MRAP

Thankyou skyrider for the mission statement of GSC: "Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees". I will ask, are there other sides available, a discussion that encompasses many opinions which I understand are welcome. I am thankfull that I ran into twi and just as thankfull that I got outa twi before I was further brain washed - I learned alot. Growing up in the Lutheran church, one Sunday was dedicated each year to bash on the Catholic church, I suppose this thread meets that criteria but on the 30th year after VPW's death? Isn't it time to let the hate of twi just rest, maybe that would be healing in itself. I realize the intent/mission of GSC: bash twi. In monitoring, this forum has drawn the most passion I have seen for some time on a forum thread, the renewal of the bashing, don't get me wrong, it's well deserved but after this length of time, I simply ask, is it maybe time to bury the hatchet and move onto a new course - a new mission. AT THIS TIME I WOULD ASK THAT A MODERATOR OR CONTROLLER MOVE THIS ONTO A NEW FORUM THREAD - CALL IT WHATEVER (you can take that a couple of ways) - SOMEONE OUT THERE KNOWS HOW TO DO THAT (much appreciated). There is so much knowledge, Biblical and other by the long standing folks here, what if that knowledge and energy where put to more efficient use, now that would be a sin to loose it. I understand the concept of the Doctrinal Forum but it does not get the hits like this forum has gotten. It's realized, that is not in the realm of the current mission statement but maybe it should be so that a wealth of knowledge does not get wasted. NO, I am not here to try and highjack anything but in all honesty, it is for mine, and hopefully others, enlightenment. Sometimes I think you folks are so geared towards the dark side of it all that you forget how good you are in speaking forth Biblical principles (in true application). Someone wrote earlier on this thread: "I just want to have a life", ditto to that. Now, maybe I just missed the boat and you have been doing this all the time, actually, you have but you have missed the boat. You see, from an outsider view, you have made yourselves untouchable - yes, a clique (over used term). You long standing GSC posters have become quite "tight" and others feel as outsiders. You know, that's to be expected if you have been posting with one another on the same site for umpteen years. I really don't care to post, I just want to read - and yes, that's greedy but others will read as well. A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE - how's that for crappy humor?

Gone yes but the music lives on and even more, those he inspired: Clapton, SR Vaugn (also passed) but what is good today is what was taken from King's past. I love the sound - can you hear it!

I pretty much got the jist on this site: not too many folks take the word seriously BUT there are a few that do. What follows is not directed to those who are not "nay sayers". So really you majority of GSC posters, you know who you are and hopefull know yourselves: can you possibley address issues in a non condesending manor, hate to say it, but I think not. This site has imploded, nothing new, most hits are on "tell me the quote of that movie or song". Really good folks, is that all you are good for. When I came onto this site and laid myself out there you jumped on me like raw meat - think about it. Anyone who monitors this site sees your actions - no wonder I was the last person to join back in March of the year and no one since. Really, how many new folk have entertained themselves on this site in recent years? You regulars for the last 15 years, you have made yourselves inaccessible, alot because you have made yourselves into a clique. You see, if you have been around for years, you are quite personable to each other - not a way to entreate newby's (they see it). Things I have been ostrized for as disrespectfull (making short of names) I have observed by veteran GSC members. There should be no such thing as earning your wings. I honestly have learned alot on this site - had to sift through alot of the nasty bull to get to it (some of you just talk/write way too much before you ever get to the point and at times, get so consumed in your own discertation that you never get there). Yet, I am more than blessed to have found GSC, what you all take as common knowledge (given you backgrounds that I respect) I just suck it up - good stuff. So, like I told Raf a while back, you can all discommunicate me - or whatever the secular religious word is for "throw out". Oh, discommunicate is actualy a very acurate word, because anytime MRAP appears on a Forum or sub formum, there is no response from the seniors. Now if it's on the doctrinal forum, then there are some learned responses but not from the seniors (you old folks) unless it is of a smacking nature. It's been fun also, watching how older Christian women and men become vicious. I thought that was only indicative of old Catholic men and women - well, you proved me wrong. Now I am not perfect but what I have said, those are just observations from an old and learned man. You folk need to become self aware if you want new folk to learn from your vast knowledge and experience: become more accessable and drop the clique syndrome that is overly obvious. Now, if you don't care, then screw it. I KNOW, this is a recovery site for injured Way Folk; when's the last time this site accomplished that edict in the GSC mission statement? Yes, as a true brother, I have been honest, I have praised and pointed out problems and accepted my own frailty in making such statements. You are all a very special people, you are my brothers and sisters but you are more than that to me because of a common pain and enlightenment. So please, take this from an old man with a true heart who cares for you, your mission and appreciation for the friendship that you share with one an other - that is the true phileo.

Thanks for your posts Mr.Sanguinette and Mr. Lortz - you provided understanding on the topic and for the rest of the posts: much appreciated.

WordWolf, the Tribulation stuff was more a side bar to the main topic of oikonomia(s). I will rephrase for sake of a more clear question: if given there is no grace period to end with the rapture then don't we just continue with Christ's period (could still be called the law period I guess since Christ is off earth for a season) and that will take us onto the tribulation and Christ's 2d coming (excluding the "in the air" coming at the rapture)? Would I be better of in my thinking if I perceived the Bible starting from creation (and what was before) and ending in the life that follows after the 2d reserection - but if that be the case, where do the changes take place for Christ dieing for mankinds sins - at the accenssion, at penticost, at the first resurection? I am not trying to do a word play here, I do want some opinion on this linear time line.

Thanks WordWolf.

O.K., waysider - so if the secret rapture (an event and not an administration or oikanomia as stated by WordWolf) is not an end event to this ("grace") oikanomia then does the oikanomia that existed with Christ's initial physical presence eventually go directly to the tribulation period? Just need to know so I can store up on fuel, food, seeds and ammo.

WordWolf, I was not poseing questions, I thought that I was responding to newlife's post. I don't see how my post was anymore jetting into the doctrinal arena than previous posts that also includes your dissertation.

Rocky, regarding the money thing, I think TWI just wanted you to give TWI your money and invest in God's minestry rather than investing in your own future. Thankfully, I left them early on in my age and invested my own cash in IRA's and 403's though I still donate significantly to religeous freedom organization. So, if your donation is tax deductible, is it still classified as "abundant sharing", is there a doctrinal sub forum on that matter?

Oops, Ham started the sub forum, my appologies Raf (thought it strange you would do that). Someone let me know if this is being moved to the doctrinal or another forum.

Raf, good question/sub-forum. I resonate with most of what has already been posted. I do cringe when family members (mostly Luterans) touch on the subject but years on the witness circuit have taught me not to engage in a discussion that is not going to go anywhere other than rub the cat's fur the wrong way; if I thought that believing in the triune would keep a person outa heaven, then I would be more of an antagonist on the subject but I have not seen that is the case, I am a Romans 10: 9-10 sorta guy - someone correct me if I am wrong on that (direct me to the correct doctrinal sub-forum). I understand your concern about keeping things in the correct forums but gee Raf, so much of this crosses lines and tangents are quickly developed: if we see things going that way then someone should just speak up and take it to the doctrinal forum, i.e, take it outside you two. Really Raf, you are in a unique position since you don't have an emotional bond to a set of Biblical beliefs but have strong knowledge of the Bible - that's what's looked for in an arbitrator or consultant at the least. I appreciate your abilities to fall in on the topics knowing that you are not trying to push a belief.

Simple Queston here: do or do not administrations/dispisations exist in the Bible? Please, no VPW quotes and I don't really think that the order of when gospels and epistiles were written adds credence to the validity of the question, then, if that should matter, I want to hear it.

Do you think that God and Jesus monitor this site? HB GSC!

newlife: I was a "Confirmed Lutheran but never understood the trinity nor believed it so it was not a factor to unbelieve the trinity. I never believed that Jesus was God - maybe an inner thought process told me that was not possible. You see, I had a terrible Luteran Reverend, I feared him and thus, just recited what he told me to - my brother folk under his yolk did the same. Bottom line, fear made me stupid and actually, that ended up a good thing for me. Regarding other posts on this sub forum matter: I sure would like to get to the bottom of what goes on in God's mind - what's real and what's not but if it's real to God then it exists (I only understand it as what is real to God does not equate in the same time zone as what is real to me).

Some very good words have been spoken. Transition: while in TWI, everyone else was just wrong and devoid of respectfullness and then there was the season that all Christians are my brothers and sister so don't go dissing them (still going on that personal philosophy) and now, I have no hate for TWI though I also have no desire to entertain TWI in my life ever again - I will just sit and read the word and monitor this site for "in"sight. I really like monitoring the discussions on the doctrinal forum - excellent stuff.

That's good news WordWolf.

Raf, I wrote my "Poker" correlation in another forum before reading your post. You gotta realize, players utilize the "fake tell" to draw you in to think they are bluffing. What, was everyone playing poker this weekend? Yeh, I heard how VPW was irrate about Howard playing penny poker with the grounds folks in the tool shed. Yes, this is off topic but the topic was about JAL and I think it has all digressed from that. WordWolf, how many churches expect you to bring a Bible to church - for the most part, they don't want you to have one in your hands while they preach (just my experience).

Let's see, shall we count the ways: spamming (for who?), highy entertainment factor (is this entertainment for you?), been busted (sounds like an internal law), rudeness (read your own historical posts), laziness (sorry, not been here for years like some knowing the site mechanics). Storm off in a huff, that's a good one: Yes, stay in the game and play against a stacked deck - is there a certain pride in driving off new folk who have either opposing or just plain ignorant concepts. It actually is like sitting in on a poker game with folks who have been playing with each other for years - ain't seen any new players recently. Again, sorry if I don't respond timely, I often take off to my folks for a week or so who are in their late 80's and have no net access. I have read through many of the sub-forums in the doctrinal (and other) forums and have been astounded by the amount of knowledge and frequently, wisdom. Thus, I realize the gathering into which I am intruding. So, take the shots, think of me as you do - I will not be detered from learning the facts. Off topic: I read in some forum that someone was looking for original PFAL books, I think I still have some - anybody there who can help me find that person. Are they collector's items now? Oh, WordWolf, As a canine, I find it strange that you would use the word: "fixed". If it don't work this time, I will foregow any future attempts at humor.

Thanks for the info WordWolf. I will give it a try on something realy old and that's fairly short.

Tzaia, when you initialize JWS, I am assumming that is John Schoenheit, correct? I suppose that I could go back through the forum topics to understand all that you mean but is there anything, specifically, that you find wrong with JWS's REV? It's difficult to wade through things here on GSC since I realize there is alot of personal bias from past experiences. You did help with some stipulation. So, is "working the word" now a bad thing since the taint of TWI. What' the process for singling out specific portions of a previous post and to respond to them: is it a simple cut and paste?