Rocky

I'm a believer in paradox, which is what I understand you're referring to in general. But I also believe that there's far more to these issues than humans have been able to grasp. Btw, it was still TL;DR, but I did skim through and picked up some of what you were getting at. More power to you in trying to reconcile paradoxical issues in the Bible.

That recitation of historical points/event doesn't seem to address the issue of Victor Wierwille's state of mind as it relates to being a con artist, at all.

My understanding of the premise, as you stated it in the title and first post, for this thread is that Victor Wierwille was "loaded with demons." You then proceeded to tell the story of some incidents. You did your best to communicate your point, using the framework of your understanding and associated language. My response was intended to reframe your points using different words/language. It is not my intent to argue theology with you about what is or isn't available two thousand years ago, or 40 years ago or now.

So it seems apparent.

Perhaps you're making a distinction where there isn't necessarily one. Perhaps you've more narrowly defined, in your mind, what a con artist is. Believe what you want to believe. In the framework you seem to have, I can't argue your distinction. But is it really relevant? Is the point of this discussion to see who's right about Victor Wierwille? Or is it to elucidate an understanding of our experience for readers, some of whom had similar experiences and may decide to re-evaluate said experiences? It's not for me to say you're wrong or right. I just understand the issue differently than you, apparently. The definition of a swindler: swindle - Swindler and swindle are from German Schwindler, "promoter of wild schemes; cheat." My understanding is that Wierwille didn't explicitly reveal (articulate) his motives for CONvincing us to join his subculture, but after years of experience and reflection on his conduct and ours, we have been able to discern that he had such undisclosed motives. I wonder, dear friend, have you read Maria Konnikova's book?

Again, WTH are you talking about? He was clever. Whether he had a genius IQ or not doesn't seem relevant. What is a con ARTIST (the subject of this thread). Someone who manipulates people and convinces them to do/believe what he/she wants the mark to do/believe. How did he not have that motive and ability? "Smart enough?" doesn't seem at all relevant.

What exactly does that mean? How smart does one have to be in order to be considered a con man? (Both are rhetorical questions) There are different types of intelligence. He had some kind ability to be able to exploit said opportunities.

Has ANYone on GSC over the decades really had ANY experience with "discerning of spirits" or other "manifestations" as taught by Victor Wierwille? I suspect that the answer is NO, NONE. Even if any have claimed to have such experience or insights, I just don't believe it. Wierwille told stories. Some true, some not true. At their root, these stories were nothing more and nothing less that ways to describe and frame and understand things (including biblical stories) that may have been read and/or observed. But sincerity (or believing said stories and telling/re-telling them with an authoritative voice) doesn't make them true, factual or in any sense "reality." They are just ways to communicate a common way to understand things. I don't believe Wierwille was "possessed." He may have been influenced by selfish and likely evil... influences. That's as far as I can go on it.

This is a tangent, but it's not necessarily off topic. Off the Edge: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Culture, and Why People Will Believe Anything Since 2015, there has been a spectacular boom in a nearly two-hundred-year-old delusion—the idea that we all live on a flat plane, under a solid dome, ringed by an impossible wall of ice. It is the ultimate in conspiracy theories, a wholesale rejection of everything we know to be true about the world in which we live. Where did this idea come from? Weill draws a straight line from today’s conspiratorial moment back to the early days of Flat Earth theory in the 1830s, showing the human impulses behind divergences in belief. Faced with a complicated world out of our individual control, we naturally seek patterns to explain the inexplicable. The only difference between then and now? Social media.

1) dilemma for whom? After more than three decades out of that mud pit, I'm convinced that most all of what Victor Wierwille taught us was bull$hit. 2) Many of us were primed as children to accept the framing in which he presented his bull$hit. 3) There are several reasons "we couldn't even recognize it..." 4) Wierwille told us what amounts to an origin story of his flavor of Christianity. Stories are endemic to humanity and provide a framework around which we build our understanding of life and its many aspects. Here's a brief story of my own. Early in my life as a follower of Victor Wierwille, I watched The Exorcist. It freaked me out in several ways. Perhaps most importantly in that my worldview at the time accepted that STORY as a reflection of reality. In the roughly four decades since my first viewing of that movie, I've learned about how important stories (true or not) are to humans. Recently, I decided to view that movie again, online. I now look at it through a different lens. It's a freakin' story. It's not a depiction of reality. It, therefore, didn't freak me out. But it did put my adult life, and plenty of things I picked up in Victor Wierwille's subculture (cult) in a different perspective. That it took me as long (multiple decades) to UNLEARN wierwillism causes me sadness. But knowing that the obstacle is (actually) the way, I'm thankful for the journey. Because now I can write with legitimate insight about how cults can trap young people.

IOW, Victor Wierwille was a con artist through and through from the beginning?

Yikes! I never paid close enough attention to her to develop an impression for myself. After studying Thomas Paine, I just never had much interest in any royalty by heredity. And you didn't miss anything of value by never having met Victor Wierwille.

The Way, in general, and certainly Loy in particular, looked at it all as a war. To say Martindale was unbalanced was/is a massive understatement.

I'm confident it's not really him.

And it's TOTAL bovine feces.

Exactly. And how narcissistic is it that he calls his group the "remnant?" Geez Louise!

Thanks T. I've been reflecting some lately on the fact that we're nearly 40 years out from the first big exodus and we're living a more abundantly rich inner life than we ever did in TWI. So much for Loy's proclamation that we'd be greasespots by midnight.

I just volunteer in my spare time.

I don't suppose we should be surprised.

Such expressions are idioms, not scientific nomenclature. It's a matter of what the sayer intended to communicate about an emotional condition or event.

We have, over the two decades of GSC's online life, quibbled about when he started (from the start, or later perhaps), but my recollection is that it is generally accepted that he was indeed a CON ARTIST. The question then becomes, what goes on inside the mind of a con artist? Curiosity Stream (dot com) is an online provider of MANY research/documentary videos. A subscription for a year can be had for $20 or less. I logged on this evening and found a new series, Inside the Mind of a Con Artist. Some of you might be interested in checking it out.

I've tried to tell him.

A wonderful human and righteous expression about cults. Thanks both to Twinky and Bolshevik for posting this excellent, though provoking video.

The link works for me. I'll watch the video later because I'm listening to a live stream WaPo presentation on pandemic preparation.