Rocky

aka subterfuge. noun Deception used to achieve an end. noun A deceptive stratagem or device.

Well, starting at the top, IF they authentically believed that, wouldn't their lives show the fruit of the spirit? I mean, I don't believe God would require people to be perfect in order for them to show such results, but come on. The "final authority?" And what does the bible say about whose responsibility it is to make the determination? From the very beginning, The Way International was ALL about judging whether someone else measured up to being right." That's foundational, IMO, to undermining everything godly about that subculture. They might not be able to recognize it or realize it in their own lives because the people who have identified the practicalities (how to actually live it) of what they claim to be twi's fundamental beliefs may not even be involved in church organizations.

Massively inauthentic. They can't get honest with themselves about anything that could help them. If they did, I suppose they'd probably have to fold up the tent and go home.

I find it much easier to figure out GSC forum posting and editing on my computer rather than on my phone. Your mother, if I understand your post correctly, is a fairly new follower of TWI? Undertow is a great first effort to clue your mother in on what The Way is all about. As to getting her to see the truth, that's a difficult question. For me, it took 12 years and plenty of friends leaving the group before I did. Love your mother, listen to her and try to understand what The Way provided her that made her decide to be a part of it.

I believe one (actually MANY) can reasonably infer, given the lack of substantive effort to reflect and get honest about why the organization has tanked, especially in the US, at minimum, the directors are clueless about that and much more. They appear to have no way to examine their processes and procedures, let alone the underlying dogmas they refuse to rethink. Academic researchers, though not focused on biblical studies, do not necessarily contradict Christianity as practiced in bible times. They can and may sometimes do, however, provide a NEW way to look at the problems churches (including fundamentalist cults/sects such as twi) recognize and address their problems. Victor's life and example was followed much more than what he taught from the bible. And the way he lived his life WAS contrary to godliness. Notably, writings in the 1980s/90s by M Scott Peck and much more recently, Brené Brown's Atlas of the Heart, Dacher Keltner's tome on The Power Paradox, and Susan Cain's exquisitely insightful book, Bittersweet: How Suffering and Longing Make Us Whole give much more practical understanding about those problems and how to figure out solutions that can work... but they won't work if the leaders/groups don't get honest about the problems in the first place.

hmmmm... idk.

Has it occurred to anyone that the expression at issue on this thread may have been meant as nothing more than a figure of speech? IDK, but it seems plausible.

There's a difference between rational and logical, though they can overlap. The bible IS a book of stories. I didn't make that up and I'm not saying that the stories are untrue. Stories, however, are not based on logic. Yet, even when they are not based on logic, the can still be rational. Story noun In lit., a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse; a tale, written in a more or less imaginative style, of that which has happened or is supposed to have happened; specifically, a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel; a short romance; a folk-tale. logic noun The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning. rational adjective Having or exercising the ability to reason. adjective Consistent with or based on reason or good judgment. In this way, I'm NOT denigrating the bible, but I emphatically believe Wierwille's approach to the bible was kittywhompus to begin with despite his explicit claims to the contrary.

Hence, no logic. EVERY religion pretty much operates the same way.

Logic? Any impression of logic from Victor Wierwille or any of his successors is entirely an illusion. I'm not trying to be facetious. Stories are not within the realm of logic. The bible is a series of stories. Even if they are/were factually true, they are still stories. My view as to where this particular story originated, without anyone providing any supporting documentation, I have to believe Victor pulled it out of his butt.

That's very intriguing (to me, anyway) Nathan. I offered up this thread not because I needed (or wanted) to know anything about anyone at GSC, but as food for thought. I was raised Catholic in upstate NY until moving w/my mother and two siblings to Arizona. During most of that time in AZ before leaving for basic training, I identified as agnostic. However, I was entrenched in Christian culture anyway. I won't ramble on about my conversion to considering myself Christian. My 12+ years in TWI and (independent) fellowships in the imprint of TWI thereafter ultimately turned me off to religion. Sure, I tried a church or two after no longer embracing the imprint of twi, but really I had no use for religion because of Victor/Loy and twi. For years, I've considered myself Deist, but really, I'm agnostic and leaning away from the concept of a personal God. I don't need to tell people I could identify as Atheist. I just don't usually bother.

Do you just reject traditional religious dogmas? Might you be an emotional atheist? For instance, are you angry at the notion of God (or god)? Or are you a social atheist, one who believes there's no reason to have a public religious tradition? Or perhaps do you have no interest in the cultural religious practices but maybe are still interested in spiritual questions?

Skyrider, Yours is an exquisite exposition of what so many of us witnessed and observed for YEARS.

The link I checked before posting that comment did have it spelled that way. So, who knows?

A Michael T Manetta is the subject of a community newspaper story indicating he was killed in a collision when his motorcycle was struck by a turning automobile that didn't properly yield

The court documents say the accused's last name is spelled Manetta.

That would make perfect sense... IF... the word(s) they used to indoctrinate (i.e. brainwash, yes that's what it was) actually provided any real hope and/or comfort. But it's ALL BS about being the only ones (household) with the real power of God. We were RIGHT and all other groups were wrong. And since they can falsely claim that glossolalia is a manifestation of God's power working through people, it takes a VERY LONG time to realize the cult is based almost entirely on deception. I left the cult after 12 years. But it took several more years before I realized the problem was far deeper than just a few sinful men misusing the authority given to them by followers. I wasn't freed from the chains in my mind by going to listen to other teachers. For me it began when I started defying Victor's suggestion (mandate) to not read anything other than (his take on what's in...) the bible. That process began in or around 1991 or 1992 when I read a couple of books by M Scott Peck. Anymore, I read more than 50 books/year.

Still, have to pay to get access to the actual complaint. We figured out yesterday that this is now a federal civil suit (personal injury tort). That means NO criminal charges are at issue in this particular lawsuit at this time.

Unicourt dot com told me it has a pdf of the complaint but wants $49 to make it available to me. I'm not going to do that.

I haven't found a complaint, but have found entries noting the nature of the case is personal injury, suggesting it was first filed in NYS courts, then transferred to SDNY (federal district court for the Southern District of New York. Identification and location of the default (person) defendant apparently took some time. Originally transferred to SDNY in 2020, latest developments seem to be that plaintiff had an attorney quit or be fired and lawyers for twi (probably) exercising stall tactics. I'd love to read the complaint. Pete, if you have any insight on how to find the complaint, please let us know.

Regurgitated bull$hit. Empty platitudes. Yeah, culture has changed dramatically. Society has changed immensely. There is SOOOOOOO much more available to know now than when I was first introduced to twi 48 years ago. Nothing in that trailer/teaser clip is AT ALL different from the script used by the master plagiarist, master prevaricator, and master con artist who said things one way but lived his live according to the sins of his flesh... more than 50 years ago when Victor first recorded the PFLAP class on film after he pilfered from research/work anyone he could find who had a take on bible doctrine he agreed with.

Ah yes, the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, as we were told was what God wanted for and from us... but it wasn't demonstrated nearly as much as we were led to expect. However, what a wonderful act of kindness and grace that you were able to set the man's mind at some degree of peace.

I agree. I still struggle with that problem.

Perhaps the work of Professor Susan David might be helpful to you. From Goodreads: The path to fulfillment, whether at work or at home, is almost never a straight line. Ask anyone who has achieved their biggest goals or who thrives in their relationships, and you’ll hear stories of many unexpected detours along the way. What separates those who rise to these challenges and those who get derailed? The answer is agility—emotional agility. Not from Goodreads, on Saturday, I visited my daughter and grandchildren. In what I attribute both to misunderstanding (on both my daughter's part and mine) and apparent mood issue, I endured a minor face melting from her. I took it in stride and didn't lash out, but it still caused me anxiety which is only today beginning to subside. I hope whatever feelings you endure because of your experience w/Waydale can subside sooner rather than later. Susan David also has a few (at least) videos on YouTube: