Rocky

Here's another book relevant to Victor's PFLAP scam. How clear was he ever in defining power? Power to move mountains? Power to change the weather? Power to (make friends and) influence people? To me, it was still all quite vague. Especially since he could talk about it, but as our good friend Skyrider has pointed out with specificity, he never really demonstrated any of the "power" manifestations of the spirit. Even if he had, eventually people would have realized doing so, coupled with his gobbledygook about the "law of believing" would actually have made it more abundantly clear that he was selling witchcraft, or occult arts. So, in Susan Cain's book, Bittersweet (which rings true MUCH more than any of Victor's ramblings or rants), she cites Dacher Keltner. I now have in front of me, a Phoenix Public Library copy of Keltner's The Power Paradox: How we gain and lose influence The check out receipt happened to be put on the page with four principles related to the Abuse of Power. Do ANY of these ring true when reflecting back on either Wierwille or Martindale and/or the culture they built and we tolerated for too long? Power leads to empathy deficits and diminished moral sentiments Power leads to self-serving impulsivity Power leads to incivility and disrespect Power leads to narratives of exceptionalism I am amazed at how the scales have been removed from the eyes of my soul. I am thankful that there's MUCH more insight into and about life than just what one can read in the King James Bible (or any other version). I am NOT at all surprised that Victor wanted to keep us from reading anything but his take on the "Word of God." All we like sheep...

Also from Bittersweet:

That is TRUTH!

Some reading material you might be interested in. If God is Love, Don't be a Jerk by John Pavlovitz John came to a similar conclusion as you, but he apparently hadn't run into any Wayfers. Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Can Make You Whole by Susan Cain Of course, we were conditioned to deny many of our emotions in twi. Susan Cain enlightens her readers and shows that we don't need to do so. Welcome Humanitarian!

Here's another salient book that further blows the lid off of whether Victor EVER had insight from God. Beside the fact that we were the only people who were RIGHT [all the time, about everything] and that we were in complete and total denial about our emotions... here's more of what we missed out on and that stunted our emotional and social growth and maturity. From Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole page 6 UC Berkeley psych professor Dacher Keltner, working with Pixar director Pete Docter...

Truth! Emphatically... the bull$hit part, that is. And I bought into it hook, line, and [stinking] sinker.

I remember. And I remember the motorcycle. At ROA 75 I learned how to kill flies with my bare hands. Long time no see (here at GSC), Little Rock.

God heals or our believing? Agree with you that $$ to TWI or "other" churches doesn't do it.

So did I. I'm thankful for dictionaries. Now, THAT is down right eloquent. Btw, I did read your entire post/comment this time, T-Bone. Wow, if that doesn't hit the nail right on the head, I don't know what would. And here I thought Pavlovitz was just using a euphemism to be nice. Of course, when I first heard about his book (it actually took my local public library FOUR months after ordering it, to get it on the shelf) I thought of some less kind words that might also apply.

The topic is, "were we taught by and in TWI to be jerks?" The answer, as I see it, is yes. I learned. Then I did. Then, from mistakes, I learned what I did didn't work.

This thread isn't about psychoanalyzing me, but thanks for asking for clarification anyway.

male-dominated social orthodoxy

The paradox, as I remember it, was that we were taught that WE were the "called out," the special ones because we had the "rightly-divided" truth. Yes, I remember reading and hearing about the two greatest commandments. But, again, for me, it wasn't until the early 1990s that I began thinking in terms of introspection. M. Scott Peck taught me, when I read his main work, The Road Less Traveled, to reflect on what I was thinking and doing. It wasn't until years later, and screwing up my marriage because of the male-dominated social orthodoxy that I even started to figure it out. The curtain didn't come up all at once to enlighten me about my psychological problems. It was a process. A journey I'm still on. Wierwille's crappy example, unfortunately taught me more than his crappy class did. That's why I appreciate people like Pavlovitz, Stephanie Foo (author of What My Bones Know), Brene Brown (Atlas of the Heart) and MANY others. Like Penworks, like Skyrider, and other current denizens of GSC. So, my conclusion, is that we very emphatically WERE taught by both dogma/doctrine and by example to be major jerks. And I was one of them. Thankfully, I never attained a powerful status or position in TWI or I have to now figure that I would have many more people to whom I would have to make amends. Being so damn sure of knowing what's right about God, or any related spiritual matter... well, going back to the OP for this thread, I believe Pavlovitz seriously understated the point. But I guess his use of a particular figure of speech in that regard can underscore the importance of it. The difference now is that I'm not a 19-year old know-it-all airman trying to sell a class. I hope others lend their insight on this subject even though this post feels like a closing argument.

Likely the parents, if not the other 12 apparently being charged, will have LOTS of time to think about the ramifications of their stupidity. Very sad for the innocent young girl.

Hmmm...

Gosh, that sounds a lot like rationalizing and excusing his non-Christian practices.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freakin' job. To love God and love others. I'm starting to think he may have missed the target on both counts.

I would argue that he did indeed go into all three. I must confess that I so agreed with your entire post that it would have been useless for me to quote all of it. Btw, remember the Einstein quote: It makes so much more sense to me now (not that it didn't make sense before) that I think of mathematics as entirely based on abstract ideas. I love that you cited the imaginary number "square root of -1." But now I realize all of math is imaginary concepts that are used to represent or describe, most of the time, real things.

Of course... please elaborate. We know the thread title poses a rhetorical question, which answers itself. I'm confident you have some pithy insight.

I just started a new thread in the About the Way forum, based on that quote. It just seems to me NOW that the quote by Pavlovitz (not a new idea, of course, and he wasn't the first to reflect on being certain about truth) that this notion completely blows the entire foundation out of PFLAP and TWI.

I have in my hand at the moment, a book by John Pavlovitz, titled "If God is Love, Don't be a Jerk." John is a former pastor who outgrew what he was taught about God. On page 39, Wasn't the entire PREMISE or Fundamental "truth" Victor taught us in PFLAP, that God's Word must fit together like a hand in a glove... with scientific precision and mathematical exactness? Besides, science isn't always precise, is it? And mathematics, well, it's primarily abstract. How long does it take an adult human to figure out that you really cannot put God in that small of a box? I know, your mileage may vary. Anyway, GSC readers may be interested in Pavlovitz' book as a doctrinal discussion. But clearly, he blows the foundation out of Victor's foundational class. He blows Victor's culture of deception completely out of the water.

That's a fact. There was (at least some) truth in Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology. What makes modern day fiction/literature so important is that (or when) a work contains or describes truth.

If the other owner shows up, or her heirs, they probably could eventually have a lawful claim to half the rent, adjusted for what your friend has to invest to make it livable for a renter.

If I was a betting man... if there's a legal problem with moving in without being able to contact the other owner, I'd bet that constructive notice by published/public notices would have to work.