Rocky

Perhaps I should clarify. Was your anguish causing experience directly aimed at you intentionally on the part of the website Waydale or its authors or admins? IOW, were you, to your knowledge named on Waydale for any act you may have committed or were thought by someone responsible for Waydale for having committed? Or was your experience caused by the fear and anger of people who at the time were loyal to The Way who then, out of that loyalty and fear for their families lashed out irrationally at you (and likely others)?

Because you, at the time, apparently had enough life experience against which to measure Rosalie's words and recognize them as Bull$hit. Hallelujah! Praise God! Amen! Old Skool, what a Righteous post, from my perspective! To Bolshevik I say that I can recognize the anguish you experienced because of what you described Waydale meaning in your life as a teenager. I am so sorry that you had to go through it. However, was your anguish caused by the exposure of The Way Corporation's evil acts and how people in the subculture at the time lashed out at you... or was your anguished caused by Waydale and P.A. having exposed what he did about what Martindale and corporate powers in The Way Corporation did? I can't answer that for you. But I hope you will be able to work through the issue and find resolution and peace somehow.

And for Victor and the Spinoffs (a lovely name for a mock rock group), it was (and for some still is) a MASSIVE con game. WE were/are the mark. Sure Victor made his case from scripture (in his pamphlet Christians Should Be Prosperous) But that was presented through the filter of contemporary culture, as opposed to exploration of the culture in the Book of Acts. The collegial culture among the believers at the time contrasts dramatically with the emphatic hierarchical culture of The Way, The Way Corporation, and The (counter-biblical) Way Tree. The two cultures are diametrically opposite. In the Book of Acts, did the apostles hoard the riches like The Way Corporation has in the 20th and 21st Century? Or did they assist the rank and file as a matter of course (rather than as a special act to make the apostles look heroic)?

I consider Harry Frankfurt a good friend who I got to know, at least a little bit, from reading On Bull$hit.

Right there Wierwille, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, connected the dots to his "abundant sharing" mantra. This shows that is was all, or at least primarily, about HIM making a living by conning followers into believing God would "open the floodgates" to them IF they tithed and then some (to him). By all accounts, including records previously shared on GSC, it worked. Millions of dollars, it worked. Quite a scheme, wouldn't you say? Then there's the mere subsistence level wages The Way Corporation paid its employees... Btw, taking the PFLAP class at age 20 (on an island in the Atlantic Ocean), having had minimal life experience or college education by that point in my life, I did NOT, at that time, have eyes to see or ears to hear the reality of that economic scheme.

I would now add inappropriate cultural appropriation to the list of sins of Victor Wierwille."Cultural appropriation is the inappropriate or unacknowledged adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity." The dilettante Victor Wierwille claimed to believe and teach the importance of Orientalisms, oriental culture and meanings of original biblical texts. But the doctrine and practice of blaming tragedy on a person's "lack of believing" or in the alternative, the person being outside of the protection of the "household of God" is nothing more than cultural appropriation of certain 19th and 20th century American concepts and phraseology. More from Susan Cain's book, Bittersweet. Chapter five explores Calvinism and transformation of that set of beliefs on "abundance" to more modern cultural frameworks of winners and losers. "How did a nation founded on so much heartache turn into a culture of normative smiles?" Of course, people my age or thereabouts would likely be familiar with Norman Vincent Peale, author of The Power of Positive Thinking. I digress... and probably should start a new thread on this subject.

Of course, but I'd ask that you don't derail this thread.

Direct connection to the thread topic? It doesn't seem so. If you want to start a different thread with that recollection, okay.

We're talking about "were we taught to be jerks in twi." Not about the specifics you mentioned (as quoted). Please don't derail the thread/topic.

Totally agree w/T-Bone, dear Twinky.

It happens. No problem, figured you'd want to be clear in retrospect.

Did you mean to say his own FATHER?

I've been well aware of that truth for many years. In this situation, the years and forgiveness and most especially the renewed relationship with my kiddo (which dates from when my daughter was pregnant with her first born) and HER grace and forgiveness have dampened the pain. Truth be told, both my ex-wife and I brought SOOOOOOOOO much emotional baggage to our marriage. Both of us are much more mellow now than we were 25+ years ago. And we are friends now. If you haven't yet gotten to a similar place, I will long and yearn for it for and with you.

Beautiful Well, the only day on which I will write. Which I do most days.

IIRC, DWBH even relayed first hand stories about Vic being physically abusive to his dog(s).

But was he a simonist?

One learns something new everyday. From UrbanDictionary.com for simonist From Wiktionary for simonist.

I say that I can't know what's in the heart of a person. But I can evaluate his public actions and things others attest to. So, I believe (that's an I statement) he was a con artist from way back. But I don't claim to know if he was always and only so.

Moral Benefits of Wisdom 2 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. When does one call out for insight? When might we cry aloud for understanding? Would those instances be when we feel like we're on top of the world and everything's going our way? Jesus declared that in the world we would have stress, pressure, hardship. If, as we were taught in TWI, those problems, those excruciating pains of loss are our fault because of our "lack of believing," then where in the process is God?

Thanks T-bone... and Watered Garden and Penworks. Perhaps one of my most important experiences of loss was the years I spent not reading anything but the ramblings and rants by Wierwille. Most recently, however, I have to thank Susan Cain and Dacher Keltner, though I find their books kind of hard to read... because I immediately want to write here and on my blog about reflections on my experiences in twi and with politics in Arizona as a result of what I read in the books of those two authors.

In theory, definitely yes. In practice, not always and practically never without massive (including use of police power of government) resistance. This ALSO applies to corporate exercise (often illegal) of power.

I think of a few memories of dealing with major LOSS events in my life. First, I go back to 1986 to clarify (once again) that my exit from TWI was not a matter of Mark and Avoid on their part. Next I go back to childhood to recall when a pet dog, Barney the beagle, died. I was maybe 8 to 10 years old. I was devastated. To avoid recurrence of that pain, I never wanted to have another dog. But we did get another dog eventually. In my late 30s, my brother, 15 months younger than I was, died suddenly as a result of undisclosed heart disease at age 36. I cried every time I thought of him, for at least the next year. Then there was the divorce, which was bad enough, but when my daughter was 13, she and I became estranged and I had no contact with her for the next seven years. I cried a lot over that pain. However, I have long continued to seek understanding and wisdom. I am no longer estranged from my daughter, who is now in her 30s. She has also given me (and three other grandparents) two lovely grandchildren and now has another on the way. Emotionally and socially, I can and do reflect back on those experiences with thankfulness. They (the experiences) are all bittersweet. I am only now who I am for having gone through them. Maybe one day (or many days) I too will write a memoir, including my time in TWI.

So, we've discussed, on some GSC topics/thread, the human need for belonging. And for how the draw for TWI was and is the human social need for belonging. The price for admission was (decades ago) taking Wierwille's class(es), faithfully attending TWIG, abundantly (and "cheerfully" sharing well more than 10 percent of your income), and eventually complying with increasingly heavy burdens of obedience to rulers (otherwise called leaders of various levels of the Way Tree, a dubious and counter-biblical doctrine/dogma). It never REALLY was about whether or not what Victor taught was god-breathed or the most accurate interpretation of the will of God. If it had been, a LOT of people who willingly left that "household of faith" would have died prematurely (than actually did). However, leaving/departing/exiting the group to which many of us identified with as the one providing us a sense of belonging--whether voluntarily or because of ostracization--most of the time brings some degree of emotional pain. From one of the books I am now reading: Loss serves up a rich and bittersweet stew of love and wisdom about what matters. Right inside the pain is the opportunity to see all of our present moments in a way that helps us live life more purposefully and more fully. But we can't learn the lessons that loss contains while fighting or running from it.

1A questions can be of legal matters, but the question as posed is not a legal question. This question, however, is exclusively a political question.

No. However, I understand asking such a question on GSC is inherently political, making this thread political. The news story to which you linked is from June 2018. I am aware that Arizona's legislature passed a bill last month that outlaws filming police from any closer than 8 feet. The governor signed the legislation and it goes into effect in September. My guess is that other states likely have enacted similar legislation. It will probably be litigated.