Rocky

Something something about the unexamined life. This goes back, for me, to M Scott Peck's books from the 1980s and 90s. The Road Less Traveled was about a person becoming aware of what his/her attitudes and beliefs are. There has been much research by social psychologists since then. Thankfully.

Jessica Nordell's book was published in September 2021. It does not, in its index, have an entry for "cult," or "sect," or "religion." But while reading the introduction and first chapter I could not help but recognize TWI, Wierwille and Loy Martindale as it defined bias that operates independently of and often controls a person's decisions without the person even recognizing or realizing it has done so. IOW, implicit bias usually happens when we are on auto-pilot. Years ago... well, I'll digress (instead) Have you ever wondered about Wierwille being so locked in on things like The Thirteenth Tribe? Even though it had nothing overtly to do with biblical research and teaching? Or the Myth of the Six Million? Or about Loy's obsession with and hatred of LGBTQ+ people? Of course TWI's implicit bias toward gays didn't start with Loy. And it took me YEARS of mindfulness to suppress and hopefully eradicate that implicit bias in my own mind.

So very true. Thanks OldSkool.

This lovely poem, I pray, I hope, will take at least a little bit of the sting out of someone who has endured the brutality of Mark and Avoid by anyone in TWI.

Duh! Of course. How silly of me.

verb transitive To incite; urge on; encourage. verb transitive To irritate; grill; provoke. verb intransitive To be eager, prone; hurry. verb transitive To make as if to strike; argue (with); strive after; try to obtain. verb intransitive To strive onward and upward. I've never heard (or read of) anyone using the word ert before! Almost surprising because some people may have considered me an erter at times in my life.

I remember being able to buy 7up (I loved it) from a vending machine for a nickel (or maybe a dime), when I was a kid. But I'm confident my parents never put any of it (or anything with caffeine) in my baby bottles. However, years later, decades really, the realization of tooth damage from Diet Mt Dew, and progressively becoming sensitive to consuming anything with sugar in it opened my eyes just like when I left twi I could see much more clearly and learn so much more.

Nailed it.

I can't speak authentically about what it is now... but yeah, you're probably right.

Is that better?

aka subterfuge. noun Deception used to achieve an end. noun A deceptive stratagem or device.

Well, starting at the top, IF they authentically believed that, wouldn't their lives show the fruit of the spirit? I mean, I don't believe God would require people to be perfect in order for them to show such results, but come on. The "final authority?" And what does the bible say about whose responsibility it is to make the determination? From the very beginning, The Way International was ALL about judging whether someone else measured up to being right." That's foundational, IMO, to undermining everything godly about that subculture. They might not be able to recognize it or realize it in their own lives because the people who have identified the practicalities (how to actually live it) of what they claim to be twi's fundamental beliefs may not even be involved in church organizations.

Massively inauthentic. They can't get honest with themselves about anything that could help them. If they did, I suppose they'd probably have to fold up the tent and go home.

I find it much easier to figure out GSC forum posting and editing on my computer rather than on my phone. Your mother, if I understand your post correctly, is a fairly new follower of TWI? Undertow is a great first effort to clue your mother in on what The Way is all about. As to getting her to see the truth, that's a difficult question. For me, it took 12 years and plenty of friends leaving the group before I did. Love your mother, listen to her and try to understand what The Way provided her that made her decide to be a part of it.

I believe one (actually MANY) can reasonably infer, given the lack of substantive effort to reflect and get honest about why the organization has tanked, especially in the US, at minimum, the directors are clueless about that and much more. They appear to have no way to examine their processes and procedures, let alone the underlying dogmas they refuse to rethink. Academic researchers, though not focused on biblical studies, do not necessarily contradict Christianity as practiced in bible times. They can and may sometimes do, however, provide a NEW way to look at the problems churches (including fundamentalist cults/sects such as twi) recognize and address their problems. Victor's life and example was followed much more than what he taught from the bible. And the way he lived his life WAS contrary to godliness. Notably, writings in the 1980s/90s by M Scott Peck and much more recently, Brené Brown's Atlas of the Heart, Dacher Keltner's tome on The Power Paradox, and Susan Cain's exquisitely insightful book, Bittersweet: How Suffering and Longing Make Us Whole give much more practical understanding about those problems and how to figure out solutions that can work... but they won't work if the leaders/groups don't get honest about the problems in the first place.

hmmmm... idk.

Has it occurred to anyone that the expression at issue on this thread may have been meant as nothing more than a figure of speech? IDK, but it seems plausible.

There's a difference between rational and logical, though they can overlap. The bible IS a book of stories. I didn't make that up and I'm not saying that the stories are untrue. Stories, however, are not based on logic. Yet, even when they are not based on logic, the can still be rational. Story noun In lit., a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse; a tale, written in a more or less imaginative style, of that which has happened or is supposed to have happened; specifically, a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel; a short romance; a folk-tale. logic noun The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning. rational adjective Having or exercising the ability to reason. adjective Consistent with or based on reason or good judgment. In this way, I'm NOT denigrating the bible, but I emphatically believe Wierwille's approach to the bible was kittywhompus to begin with despite his explicit claims to the contrary.

Hence, no logic. EVERY religion pretty much operates the same way.

Logic? Any impression of logic from Victor Wierwille or any of his successors is entirely an illusion. I'm not trying to be facetious. Stories are not within the realm of logic. The bible is a series of stories. Even if they are/were factually true, they are still stories. My view as to where this particular story originated, without anyone providing any supporting documentation, I have to believe Victor pulled it out of his butt.

That's very intriguing (to me, anyway) Nathan. I offered up this thread not because I needed (or wanted) to know anything about anyone at GSC, but as food for thought. I was raised Catholic in upstate NY until moving w/my mother and two siblings to Arizona. During most of that time in AZ before leaving for basic training, I identified as agnostic. However, I was entrenched in Christian culture anyway. I won't ramble on about my conversion to considering myself Christian. My 12+ years in TWI and (independent) fellowships in the imprint of TWI thereafter ultimately turned me off to religion. Sure, I tried a church or two after no longer embracing the imprint of twi, but really I had no use for religion because of Victor/Loy and twi. For years, I've considered myself Deist, but really, I'm agnostic and leaning away from the concept of a personal God. I don't need to tell people I could identify as Atheist. I just don't usually bother.

Do you just reject traditional religious dogmas? Might you be an emotional atheist? For instance, are you angry at the notion of God (or god)? Or are you a social atheist, one who believes there's no reason to have a public religious tradition? Or perhaps do you have no interest in the cultural religious practices but maybe are still interested in spiritual questions?

Skyrider, Yours is an exquisite exposition of what so many of us witnessed and observed for YEARS.

The link I checked before posting that comment did have it spelled that way. So, who knows?

A Michael T Manetta is the subject of a community newspaper story indicating he was killed in a collision when his motorcycle was struck by a turning automobile that didn't properly yield