Rocky

Okay, you're not quibbling. To answer your questions. I was asking any/all readers those questions. There's an old saying, "if the foo poops, wear it." or something like that... Oh, correction, if the shoe fits... If nobody finds the questions relevant, so be it. However, declaring Mike's schtick pathetic hasn't made any progress, either, right? I'll grant that I have been dismissive of Mike's antics and his claims and his reverence for PFLAP and Wierwille. But my objective wasn't to get him to like me or listen to my perspective either. Was it yours? I figured that 20 years of doing the same thing and expecting any different outcome wasn't worth my time. But I share perspective and values with the rest of the people on this thread. Have I taken an approach that everyone will consider? Probably not. But with you, T-Bone, I share a curiosity about matters of the mind and human behavior/conduct. So, I thought it possible you might be interested in Deep Canvassing and McRaney's book. One thing necessary to get people to consider changing their minds, according to what I've read recently, is empathy. I haven't demonstrated empathy toward Mike. So I don't expect him to care in the least about what I have to say to or about him.

Okay. Your intentions are noble. Yet, speaking of data, do you have any data to show the approach taken by those who engage with Mike's vain babblings have changed their minds because of those discussions? I get that you are likely not impressed with the perspective I present now. That's okay. But, if you really want to change minds of twi refugees, you might want to explore the concept of Deep Canvassing. Can you reflect back on interactions with Mike and honestly think they would be considered Deep Canvassing types of conversations? I appreciate that you read extensively on psychology issues. This book might interest you. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57933312-how-minds-change

WW said that about Mike. Has Mike shown ANY indication in 20 effing years that he has given your perspective ANY serious consideration, T-Bone? OR, is what he said on this thread the same position he has taken, and overtly stating his dismissiveness of EVERY thing that anyone who disagrees with him... just today? Does that rhetoric/narrative reflect ANYthing different from the tone and gist he has consistently maintained for TWENTY years? Have you detected ANY posts from anyone on GSC indicating that discussions with Mike have moved them in any direction, toward or away from twi? Just asking.

In Mike's case, the same $pit, (different but not really different) day for 20 years. Have you made any progress?

Oh. Okay, he isn't pushing your buttons. Not causing anyone to react/respond emotionally. You're absolutely correct.

Did it ever occur to you that he might really be doing nothing more than mocking you? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/07/onion-amicus-brief-supreme-court-satire-essential/

There is NO logic or rational thinking/analysis in that claim, at all. Well now. While Mike's claim here is also NOT at all rational or logical, it DOES show that he continues to push people's buttons... or at least try to do so. WW "gets" Mike... at least to some degree. But why ANY of you continue to let him toss you around with every wind of psychological manipulation escapes me. 20 fking years. NOBODY ever gets anything in reply/response from him other than crap that fits neatly into the same damn box he's kept you in for TWO decades.

That sounds like a Yogi Berra-ism.

SAME game... ALWAYS. One game.

My final word: Consider WTF you intend to do on GSC, especially the About the Way forum. I believe that continuing to allow Mike to toss you about with his and others' vain babblings, you do a gross disservice to the purpose of GSC. Consider how your words, especially when you allow yourself (selves) to be used by Mike, would be construed by an innocent soul wanting to figure out what's really the problem(s) with twi. THAT is why this thread (IMO) belongs ONLY in the doctrinal forum.

I don't know. I don't care. This whole thread, IMO, is vain babbling and good people being tossed about by every wind of Mike's bull$pit.

I disagree. It also gets into how several of you are so easily tossed about (by see Eph 4:14) whenever he pushes your buttons. The overall and overarching "discussion" is doctrinal. It's not just me, but then again, I'm not a moderator either. Bottom line: LEARN from the 20 years or so in which Mike has been pulling this same s**t. In the meantime, the purpose of the "about the way" forum has been hijacked. Period. Further in the meantime, take a lesson from Ryan Holiday, whose latest book on Stoic philosophy is "Discipline is Destiny: the Power of Self-Control." As you know, self-control is the farthest thing from a Biblical truth, right? Self-Control is pretty much what Wierwille lacked. HE was tossed about by every wind of the temptation of his flesh and seemed to most easily justify disregarding the virtues of self-control... he did whatever the h E double hockey sticks he wanted to do and he used his own damn private interpretation to justify it. As to the doctrinal issue of the Absent Christ, who gives a F? Nevertheless... carry on.

Btw, generally speaking, and notwithstanding Wierwille's years of gaslighting, science isn't precise.

FACT! Also fact, I tried to warn you guys.

Isn't this REALLY a doctrinal forum topic?

Perhaps you can find something you might be looking for on this thread.

Yes, very good and very succinct. For those in twi who are ready to hear, it's also quite salient.

They don't know better. Seems like EVERY religious institution (twi is obviously a very minor "institution") is only concerned about what is good for the organization. Not unlike the clergy-penitent privilege that protects child abusers in many states from being discovered. A huge factor for both the Mormon/LDS and Catholic Churches to PROTECT THEMSELVES. Not interested in what's best for the people they're supposed to serve. In the case of TWI and/or splinter groups, THEY can't go past what they know because they have no vision and nobody they want to trust has told them they CAN go further.

Word!

Perhaps true, yet he may have had a valid point about self-limiting lack of vision. That's why I cited Sheehy's Pathfinders, which book inspired me to go beyond what Wierwille taught. And to "think outside the box."

Yeah, a whole new world. I can't help but say AMEN (and AWOMEN) to the behavioral insights of your initial reflections and predictions. In a way... or put differently... RandR was a reactionary "movement." They grew fed up with aspects of the Wierwille cult and how it had malformed over the decades... and only wanted to go back to what they believed were the righteous aspects of the movement they "grew up" in. They aren't and weren't a visionary group with new ideas or new ways of looking at what they understood from their biblical studies or religious practices. What is it Victor used to teach? A person can't go farther (or was it further) than he is taught? At times like these I think back to a book Gail Sheehy wrote decades ago, Pathfinders. Originally published in 1982, I remember reading it in the 1990s. The late journalist (she succumbed to Covid, before there was a vaccine, IIRC) was a true visionary and had plenty of insight that the R and R bots could have (or could still) use(d) to get out of the Wierwille mold. (two separate legit usages of "mold" intended here). Anyway, Skyrider, I again appreciate your insight... ... and Chockfull's insight too. For individuals involved, I can't honestly answer it either. However, as a group, or as a movement hoping to actually revitalize groups of followers of Wierwille, it seems obvious to me that they lack necessary the ability to "think" or envision outside of the box they've been trapped in (of their own choosing) for decades.

What a WONDERFUL couple of analogies, figures of speech. Not a transformer. Can and should we take LITERALLY the "fact" Jesus Christ is "right now seated at the right hand of God..." IF it were literal, how would it be depicted in images and stories? What the heck does it mean, in literal, factual, truth? Or is it a story told down through the ages... to depict a certain truth? You know, kinda like Greek, Roman, or Norse mythology? I know, that's

Yet, one thing he wasn't when he was in human form on earth is Caucasian. That's a cool video clip, but I had cognitive dissonance when they used Jim Caviezel's image and clips, in it.