Rocky

Mistletoe Mike, has an interesting idea there. However, besides failure to grasp the salient notion of Wierwille living the life of a con artist, his "suggestions for improvement" in Victor's cult also lack grasp of cultural inertia. Of course, others on this thread have either alluded to or described said inertia. Mistletoe Mike, alas, lacks the drive and tenacity of a warrior. If he had said tenacity, he'd not necessarily feel the need to be a parasite at GSC, he'd do what warriors and spies have done in records throughout the millennia, operate from within his target organization, albeit quietly and in a clandestine manner. Why doesn't Mistletoe Mike take advantage of TWI's insecurity (seeking to reinstate those who have left the "Household") and go back in to make the changes he so wants to see? I think of Jesus, when he eluded mobs. In Luke 4 (NIV): 16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f] 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked. 23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’” 24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy[g] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.” 28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

He might have been beautiful when he was young, but a lifetime of Kool menthols and Drambuie certainly took a toll.

I now conclude EVEN Wierwillites are able to go far beyond what they've been taught... but not without breaking the bonds limiting them to the boundaries of Victor's teachings, subculture, and idolatrous religion. Of course, I (long ago) determined not to accept the Wierwillite limitations. Eve (you know, Adam's better half ) may have (mythically, perhaps) been banned from the garden of Eden because she was "tricked" by a snake. but Linus, OTOH... obtained citizenship in the Land of Knowledge.

I'm wondering if *Mistletoe Mike doesn't simply have ADHD. Of course, we ALL are easily susceptible to distraction anymore these days because of the internet. (I'm thinking Bolshevik may agree). But I digress. I saw an image/meme with this Octavia Butler quote from her book, Parable of the Talents and immediately thought of the silliness of people not being able to go farther than they are taught. I realized there are so many reasons GSC needed to see/hear/read it. The sentiment is apropos for TWI and other cult survivors, is it not? (I ask rhetorically) *Mistletoe is the common name for obligate hemiparasitic plants in the order Santalales. They are attached to their host tree or shrub by a structure called the haustorium, through which they extract water and nutrients from the host plant. I've been scratching my head about Mistletoe Mike for some time. Yesterday, it occurred to me his relationship with GSC is, indeed, that he represents a parasite. I don't mean to infer or insinuate he is less than human. Just that his relationship to the website seems clearly to be parasitic in nature. First used in English in 1539, the word parasite comes from the Medieval French parasite, from the Latin parasitus, the latinisation of the Greek παράσιτος (parasitos), "one who eats at the table of another"[5] and that from παρά (para), "beside, by"[6] + σῖτος (sitos), "wheat", hence "food".[7] The related term parasitism appears in English from 1611.

Great principle? Is the expression somewhere in the bible? Nevertheless, radical change can be hard for cultures to accept. Incremental changes, much easier.

So is Clarissa.

I finally caught up to you... of course, I expect you're sound asleep by now.

For more than $30... and as high as $300.

Hmmm... sounds like the premise of a time travel novel. Happy New Year Twinky!

Btw, Rose McGowan, in 2018 wrote and published her memoir Brave. From the back cover of Brave, she says, "Brave is the story of how I fought my way out of these cults [COG and Hollywood] and reclaimed my life. I want to help you do the same. And in 2022, Daniella Mestyanek Young (COG survivor) published her memoir, UnCULTured. Janja Lalich, Ph.D. a professor (I think Charlene knows Dr Lalich) and coauthor of Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships said, "...Daniella educates us not only about cults but also about the similarities of coercive control in some of our most respected social institutions."

Please write that book. In YOUR voice, from your perspective, incorporating your experience in gardening and other aspects of your life. I'm confident you could put your experience in Christian service since exiting TWI in that kind of frame. I have no doubt that piece of artistic expression WILL wonderfully reach and impact many lives. I'd also bet God can and will open the doors for you to make it a reality. Doing so can be the best mark your life overall will leave on society as a whole, other than how you actually reach individual people and touch them with God's love.

All worthy of your time and energy. Thank you for doing so.

Bravo! Back at you, Skyrider!

In other threads on this forum, I've commented/posted how I believe TWI and the Children of God cult had numerous parallels. The differences as fundamentalist Christian cults between the two organizations are essentially a matter of degrees. 1) As illusory as Wierwille's Th.D. (or Ph.D.) was or wasn't, he had more education than David Berg (founder of COG); 2) the degree of debauchery and self-justifying rationalization in the practices and teachings of the two were parallel but different in how divergent from acceptable societal norms each practiced; 3) Wierwille apparently craved a higher degree of societal acceptance. Nevertheless, both organizations were largely engrossed in fleshly desires of the founders. Berg's sexual deviance was clearly more audacious AND garnered him and his cult more immediate notoriety. But BOTH were sexual deviants. Both used scripture to rationalize their interpretation of the bible to justify the practices used to satisfy their appetites. Because the basis of each was religion with religious freedom being so fundamental to Western norms, journalistic reporting has had limited impact on the practices of each. Btw, these are not the only two such fundamentalist cults in operation, then or now. We also know legal system challenges to TWI practices (likely) suppressed some of the TWI sexual abuse. Nevertheless, I am skeptical cult control practices have been effectively eliminated. For both TWI and COG, the key factor in raising societal awareness has (IMO) exclusively been the telling of personal and intimate stories of survivors. For TWI, we are aware of using cyberspace to tell some of those stories. One of our own, Bolshevik, has adequately pointed out some of the unintended consequences of (Trancenet/Trancechat, I include those because they preceded Waydale), Waydale, and Greasespot Café. I acknowledge the "wild west" nature of cyberspace. In addition, certain journalistic and/or memoir accounts of people in TWI have, thankfully, raised awareness. Notably, Karl Kahler's The Cult That Snapped; Undertow by Charlene Edge; and Losing the Way by Kristen Skedgell. (Btw, does any reader have access to a copy of Kristen's book?) Have any of you thought, even in passing, that you might write a memoir of your time in TWI?

Unless you defy the limitations. In which case you CAN go beyond what you're taught. In particular, if you DO READ/STUDY beyond the bible (and/or the PFLAP collaterals). History is filled to overflowing with accounts of humans refusing to be limited by false boundaries imposed by others. Cases in point: Star Trek as a model for exploration. Half a century ago, the Apollo space program. In 2022, the Artemis space program. New models/methods for vaccination development. Per Albert Einstein, imagination is more important than intelligence. A recent book by Jane McGonnigle, Imaginable, demonstrates the point. As does David Eagleman's Runaway Species: How Creativity Remakes the World.

Three rhetorical questions. I apologize for not being clear on it previously.

A very important anthology which hopefully will grow as time goes by.

Sometimes you just have to let go and leave it to the reader to recognize the absurdity of Mike's blathering over the course of two decades. Do you trust readers? Or will readers understand better if you add your insight... which has not changed much (or maybe anything) Mike has claimed in the course of those decades? I'm not saying I believe what you post is wrong in any way. However, does or has any of what you've posted/commented made any lasting impact on the history or what Mike says?

You don't have to respond to him or take his bait. I hope you can focus on telling your story.

My review and the story tell us something about ourselves (some of us here on GSC, that is). Including Mike. (I'm not soliciting a conversation, especially with Mike. However, if he reads this, maybe he'll reflect on it. I wrote this review of The Book of Longings: I didn't realize until I was in an unhappy marriage that one of my deepest longings was to be heard. To be a voice. I started writing shortly thereafter. It has been more than 25 years since. But I digress. ANA mattered. She lived an internally rich, variegated life. She was the wife of Jesus. She was (IS) a voice. Sue Monk Kidd wrote a masterpiece. I hope you enjoy The Book of Longings as much as I did. Perhaps the passage that struck me most was this: "Years ago, after that day I came to your house, I wrote down your story on papyrus. I wrote about your ferocious spirit, how you stood in the street and cried out what happened to you and were silenced for it. I think every pain in this world wants to be witnessed, Tabitha. That's why you shouted about your rape on the street and it's why I wrote it down." She stared at me unblinking, then pulled me to her and clung there.

Here's another one (kind of) about Jesus... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52698452-the-book-of-longings I read this in 2020. Goodreads describes it: Grounded in meticulous historical research and written with a reverential approach to Jesus’s life that focuses on his humanity, The Book of Longings is an inspiring account of one woman’s bold struggle to realize the passion and potential inside her, while living in a time, place, and culture devised to silence her. Raised in a wealthy family in Sepphoris with ties to the ruler of Galilee, Ana is rebellious and ambitious, a relentless seeker with a brilliant, curious mind and a daring spirit. She yearns for a pursuit worthy of her life, but finds no outlet for her considerable talents. Defying the expectations placed on women, she engages in furtive scholarly pursuits and writes secret narratives about neglected and silenced women. When she meets the eighteen-year-old Jesus, each is drawn to and enriched by the other’s spiritual and philosophical ideas. He becomes a floodgate for her intellect, but also the awakener of her heart. Their marriage unfolds with love and conflict, humor and pathos in Nazareth, where Ana makes a home with Jesus, his brothers, James and Simon, and their mother, Mary. Here, Ana’s pent-up longings intensify amid the turbulent resistance to the Roman occupation of Israel, partially led by her charismatic adopted brother, Judas. She is sustained by her indomitable aunt Yaltha, who is searching for her long-lost daughter, as well as by other women, including her friend Tabitha, who is sold into slavery after she was raped, and Phasaelis, the shrewd wife of Herod Antipas. Ana’s impetuous streak occasionally invites danger. When one such foray forces her to flee Nazareth for her safety shortly before Jesus’s public ministry begins, she makes her way with Yaltha to Alexandria, where she eventually finds refuge and purpose in unexpected surroundings.

How does it make sense to try to have a conversational style on a thread? (Rhetorical question, I'm not interested in answers to that question) OTOH, Telling a story in comments on a thread DOES make sense. People are ALL about stories. They are fundamental to human communication and learning. Trying to have a conversation with Mike is beyond meaningless. It's a waste of time. Tell stories. Don't go back and forth in meaningless chatter with Mike. Please.

Isn't it delicious for Mike to so "honestly" tell us who he is, yet so much flies over his head and he doesn't have even the most minute clue?

https://ses.edu/logical-fallacies-101-appeal-to-authority-ad-verecundiam/