Rocky

Has it EVER occurred to you to consider HOW or WHY that matters to you at all?

LOL... there YOU go again.

It seems important to me to parse what the question means or implies. Clearly, children in the US can be and are troubled sometimes and to some extent by abusive aspects of their parents' religions. Clearly, said second generation of people adversely impacted by various cults could/would hope for a mechanism for government to facilitate escape from those controlling and abusive religious organizations. But what kind of mechanism could at all be feasible without jeopardizing foundational freedoms (of religion)? Perhaps some kind of education program about spiritual/religious abuse? But even with that, wouldn't there be difficult issues to navigate any or all of which would cause potentially large and vociferous reactionary pushback?

However, this innovative idea (don't forget last year's idea of a revamped/rehashed music festival for young people) is nothing to shake a stick at. Failure ALSO is necessary for learning. They'll learn things from the postcard experiment. BUT... they are likely to get stuck when they decline to innovate the organization's approach to God. They likely hold dear the verse in Hebrews which tells them Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yet, is the Jesus taught by Wierwille and Martindale the same Jesus of the bible? I remember Loy asking that very question, as if he and twi were the ones who had it right. Put another way, if twi doesn't go beyond the "research" and private interpretation of Wierwille, it just may not matter how much organizational learning or innovation they do. Btw, has it occurred to anyone here on GSC (maybe it has) that despite Wierwille's attempt to link up HIS interpretation as being GOD's actual interpretation of the bible, he actually also declared it to be his, Victor's OWN interpretation, because nobody has had it right since the First Century?

At any moment, roughly a million people are reclining in comfortable chairs thousands of miles above the surface of the planet. Such has been the success of commercial flight. It was not long ago that traveling through the sky was an unthinkably rare and risky adventure. Now it hardly lifts an eyebrow: we board like sleepwalkers, only becoming energized if something gets in the way of our expectation of delicious meals, reclining seats and streaming movies. Eagleman, David; Brandt, Anthony. The Runaway Species (p. 16). Catapult. Kindle Edition.

Perhaps I underestimated TWI. In the 1970s, Wierwille/twi looked to college educated way corps(e) volunteers to adapt HQ to business model operations, albeit immensely more primitive than businesses exist today. With the emergence of the postcard stunt, it now occurs to me (not altogether without suggestions from Bolshevik and maybe one or two others on this thread) how twi may, in fact, be updating its innovation (with the retirement of RFR?) by way of younger college educated (not necessarily limited to twi retained lawyers) people. Data science is a neo-nascent academic field as I understand it. I graduated from college 37 years ago. Data processing was important then. However, for business enterprises (and twi IS a business enterprise even though it might be/likely is organized as a nonprofit business)

If the link is blocked, nevermind, it's just an image of Paine.

Literal translation according to usage... "...since you refuse to examine it, you'll remain firmly encased in the quicksand of your minute and miniscule mental dungeon." Alas, Mike is hopeless. How does he expend his mental energy? Hard to tell. As for me and my house... I look to the wisdom of Proverbs 2:1-5. 2 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. God inspires awe. Wierwille, OTOH, inspires nothing. Imagine. Ponder. Consider. What images from the JWST inspire... far more than anything the guy Mike characterizes (as if he knows the heart and mind of GSC netizens) as the anti-hero. Research THIS:

I've thought long and hard about the unquestioned belief in the fundamental morality of TWI. IMO, this is a question for cultural anthropologists. Raised in a culture/society which was overwhelmingly oriented to the Christian church, for many people (specifically ME), is why it took 12 years to be able to perceive the evil of the very concept of a fundamentalist Christian cult and TWI in particular. I left twi when MANY PEOPLE left. That was one key for me. Popped the balloon of belonging to a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry. The other main issue for me was having my eyes opened to the depravity of the top dogs. Screw the lockbox, that concept itself IS evil.

Your GSC avatar makes you seem a LOT younger than your FB profile pic does.

Does THIS pattern sound at all familiar?

There you go again, Mike. OWN your own level of communications prowess or awkwardness therein. Also, please tell us exactly HOW you know "you[r] filter for reading me is to look for ways to..." I suspect you don't necessarily "know" what's in his heart. However, you may be able to guess some of it by interpreting his word choice. Please note that (y)our friend Socrates hasn't stooped himself to telling you that you didn't correctly read what he wrote to you. In case you haven't figured it out yet, and I figure you have, I find it just a tad irritating when you refuse to own responsibility for your own dang words. However, please let me know if you need any clarification and I will do my best to be more clear.

I believe Santa Claus IS real. A real storybook style fictional character, that is. Humans are ALL about stories. People have told their own stories on GSC, for example, which are not fictional.

"truths already known spiritually?" Gosh Mike. Really? How would they have become known in the first place?

Or perhaps Mike doesn't have an answer and is trying to figure it out as he goes? That would make sense to me, if true. But if it's not Mike's intent, then yes, he's articulating some rationalization as to how he imagined it took place.

Mike, was there EVER a standard against which to measure Victor's hunches? How do "spiritual" hunches constitute a biblical research ministry, or a teaching ministry claiming to be founded on the "integrity of the Word?" On what, really, was the fellowship aspect of the organization based? Didn't Victor, in PFLAP teach something about having a center of reference for learning anything? Why did he feel compelled to send Cummins to Germany to look for that manuscript in the first place? I can go as far as relying on "first thoughts" and what a minister FEELS led to do when ministering to a person in need... for example perhaps, of physical healing. But what, besides something mentioned already, a sense of confirmation bias, is a follower of Victor's ministry supposed to rely on when the storms come? Like when a person's core beliefs are challenged? Consider Matthew chapter 13. I never understood the verses following 13:10. But since I've written news and a blog, I have learned the REAL reason people use parables is to make it easier for the reader or listener to understand what the writer/speaker actually means. So, why wouldn't Cummins have been tasked with figuring out why Jesus made sense when speaking in parables, but NOT when he answered his disciples' question about his rhetorical methods?

Hmmm... great question. Perhaps Jesus' words as recorded in Matthew chapter 7 might contain some insight. The experience of people like you, Fred, and many others who shared their stories on GSC better reflect the truth of twi ministry than those who might drive down Wierwille Road after turning off of Ohio Highway 29. Or more fairly than what they claim on the infamous GREEN signup card for foundational classes.

I'll donate after payday. I only get paid once/month.

And speaking of imagination, Ryan Holiday shared some insight on a YT short recently:

Btw, I didn't get one from them either. I was born into an RC family and my father, aunts/uncles/cousins have been laid to rest in a Catholic cemetery in Upstate NY... but I have only rarely been to any masses in the 55 years since having first moved to AZ.

Fred's comment was ambiguous. He said, "marked and annoyed." He may have meant marked and avoided... or he may have meant that HE got ANNOYED and left.

YMMV. Your mileage may vary. Absolutely, their societies are far from utopian. And yes, people also leave the LDS church. However, they have a massive outreach strategy. My experience w/the LDS church is them having, in a clandestine manner, intervened in my divorce litigation. My ex-wife "hooked up" (retained) a Mormon divorce lawyer. She converted. They funded a bribe of the judge at one point. No, I don't have proof, or I would have made a VERY big deal of the situation. Corruption in Arizona courts happens and it matters in harmful ways. Nevertheless, the LDS church does use money in multiple ways to aid people in their congregations. MY point was only that TWI sucks their followers dry and doesn't generally provide ways to help people.

Good insight. It occurs to me they may be looking to shed the "controlling cult" aspect of their well-documented (in particular on GSC) history. Of course, I have no insider knowledge at this point, but... IF (hypothetically) they see the organization at a dead-end fiscally, they may institute a mindset of adaptation and look for ways to head off the seemingly inevitable. I think, in this regard, of the Mormons (LDS church). In the 19th century, as a controversial pseudo-Christian organization, it both encountered growth and massive pushback or resistance. It found ways to survive (so far). How controlling and oppressive it was/has been, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if top twi leadership isn't or hasn't studied LDS church history to look for what worked for that church. I wonder to what extent twi is prepared to alter its financial model to extend the likelihood of survival of the organization. What I do know about the LDS is it is VERY strict about tithing. However, in parallel to that practice, the Mormons are far more generous in using what now reportedly amounts to a treasury far in excess of what TWI has been know to amass... to TAKE CARE of the families of its members. By no means does that indicate LDS society is even close to utopian. Sexual dysfunction is STILL a significant problem largely because of the closed nature of LDS communities. However, IMO, if twi wants to survive, it will at least have to figure out how to redirect away from sucking PFLAP grads completely dry of the fruits of their labors while still enforcing the tithe. I offer these thoughts only because I/we figure they're still readings what we have to say. In the meantime, we keep pushing back on and against TWI.

I am thankful for your resilience. And for your voice. Because both of those things MATTER greatly.