Rocky

Or perhaps Mike doesn't have an answer and is trying to figure it out as he goes? That would make sense to me, if true. But if it's not Mike's intent, then yes, he's articulating some rationalization as to how he imagined it took place.

Mike, was there EVER a standard against which to measure Victor's hunches? How do "spiritual" hunches constitute a biblical research ministry, or a teaching ministry claiming to be founded on the "integrity of the Word?" On what, really, was the fellowship aspect of the organization based? Didn't Victor, in PFLAP teach something about having a center of reference for learning anything? Why did he feel compelled to send Cummins to Germany to look for that manuscript in the first place? I can go as far as relying on "first thoughts" and what a minister FEELS led to do when ministering to a person in need... for example perhaps, of physical healing. But what, besides something mentioned already, a sense of confirmation bias, is a follower of Victor's ministry supposed to rely on when the storms come? Like when a person's core beliefs are challenged? Consider Matthew chapter 13. I never understood the verses following 13:10. But since I've written news and a blog, I have learned the REAL reason people use parables is to make it easier for the reader or listener to understand what the writer/speaker actually means. So, why wouldn't Cummins have been tasked with figuring out why Jesus made sense when speaking in parables, but NOT when he answered his disciples' question about his rhetorical methods?

Hmmm... great question. Perhaps Jesus' words as recorded in Matthew chapter 7 might contain some insight. The experience of people like you, Fred, and many others who shared their stories on GSC better reflect the truth of twi ministry than those who might drive down Wierwille Road after turning off of Ohio Highway 29. Or more fairly than what they claim on the infamous GREEN signup card for foundational classes.

I'll donate after payday. I only get paid once/month.

And speaking of imagination, Ryan Holiday shared some insight on a YT short recently:

Btw, I didn't get one from them either. I was born into an RC family and my father, aunts/uncles/cousins have been laid to rest in a Catholic cemetery in Upstate NY... but I have only rarely been to any masses in the 55 years since having first moved to AZ.

Fred's comment was ambiguous. He said, "marked and annoyed." He may have meant marked and avoided... or he may have meant that HE got ANNOYED and left.

YMMV. Your mileage may vary. Absolutely, their societies are far from utopian. And yes, people also leave the LDS church. However, they have a massive outreach strategy. My experience w/the LDS church is them having, in a clandestine manner, intervened in my divorce litigation. My ex-wife "hooked up" (retained) a Mormon divorce lawyer. She converted. They funded a bribe of the judge at one point. No, I don't have proof, or I would have made a VERY big deal of the situation. Corruption in Arizona courts happens and it matters in harmful ways. Nevertheless, the LDS church does use money in multiple ways to aid people in their congregations. MY point was only that TWI sucks their followers dry and doesn't generally provide ways to help people.

Good insight. It occurs to me they may be looking to shed the "controlling cult" aspect of their well-documented (in particular on GSC) history. Of course, I have no insider knowledge at this point, but... IF (hypothetically) they see the organization at a dead-end fiscally, they may institute a mindset of adaptation and look for ways to head off the seemingly inevitable. I think, in this regard, of the Mormons (LDS church). In the 19th century, as a controversial pseudo-Christian organization, it both encountered growth and massive pushback or resistance. It found ways to survive (so far). How controlling and oppressive it was/has been, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if top twi leadership isn't or hasn't studied LDS church history to look for what worked for that church. I wonder to what extent twi is prepared to alter its financial model to extend the likelihood of survival of the organization. What I do know about the LDS is it is VERY strict about tithing. However, in parallel to that practice, the Mormons are far more generous in using what now reportedly amounts to a treasury far in excess of what TWI has been know to amass... to TAKE CARE of the families of its members. By no means does that indicate LDS society is even close to utopian. Sexual dysfunction is STILL a significant problem largely because of the closed nature of LDS communities. However, IMO, if twi wants to survive, it will at least have to figure out how to redirect away from sucking PFLAP grads completely dry of the fruits of their labors while still enforcing the tithe. I offer these thoughts only because I/we figure they're still readings what we have to say. In the meantime, we keep pushing back on and against TWI.

I am thankful for your resilience. And for your voice. Because both of those things MATTER greatly.

Because CULTS, by definition, isolate and depend for their survival on YOU depending solely on them.

This book, by this author, may challenge how you look at life. And that can be a good thing. Anders is an award-winning sci-fi writer, which pretty much by definition means she looks at life and things in unconventional ways. I add this to the list of anti-fragility literature because she has faced plenty of her own very difficult moments. The first chapter is titled, "How to Make Your Own Imaginary Friends." The chapter opens: The waybrain might tempt you to fear doing so, thinking you could be inviting possession by a sinister spiritual power. But it's NOT that. Because YOU control your imagination. YOU can construct YOUR new reality. To borrow something from a source TWI liked (at least when I was involved), "what the mind of man [or woman] can conceive and believe, it can achieve." https://timothy-simpson.com/what-the-mind-of-man-can-conceive-and-believe-it-can-achieve/ https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/193057-whatever-the-mind-of-man-can-conceive-and-believe-it https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/948213.Success_Through_a_Positive_Mental_Attitude However, to borrow something else, "Life is not a bed of roses." 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 The point is: Charlie Jane Anders can teach and inspire one's imagination. Scientist Einstein, one of the smartest people to have lived, is thought to have said, Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. Waybrain for some people engenders fear. You don't need to be afraid to expand your imagination.

Here's some philosophical wisdom that readers may or may not relate to, but I see it definitely as concerns twi: There is SOOOOOOOOOO much more knowledge about so SOOOOOOOOOOOO many, many things in life today than there were when we were enchained by TWI.

I didn't say that... I just don't see them as being very sophisticated.

Another way to view it or rather to label it is to realize each is the cult's "origin myth."

Of course. Yes, we still have agency in such situation(s). Isn't that the essence of the dilemma of getting conned by a charismatic cult leader and the importance of actually learning how and why one got caught up with said cult? Then deciding to take steps to find ways out along with finding less cultish ways of getting our need for belonging met.

Perhaps a more stark mental model for said kind of dark example of a void is a guy in the news all over the country the last couple of weeks for his pervasive, persistent prevarication. A guy who claims 142k people selected him for a seat in a certain national legislative body (in the US). But that 142k voted for somebody who conned them.

AFAI am concerned, the "great principle" is NOT in the bible. Ecclesiastes says there's no new thing under the sun, sometimes that's true. But "the preacher" who wrote Ecclesiastes didn't know much about astronomy beyond names of some of the most prominent constellations; didn't have anywhere near as much available knowledge of cosmology or healthcare or geology or electricity or any one of hundreds or thousands of sciences or other fields of study. However, there WERE philosophers back then. Thinkers. MY Great Principle is Lifelong Learning. I clearly don't know nearly as much as I would like (or love) to know. But this is one thing I learned a little bit about today.

What matters is the response, not the reaction to the response. I love chockful's idea.

YES!

Not surprising. Paranoia can be serious.

They may not have liked how we criticized their FOG pic. The new one seems to be trying to project a more "cheerful" image... with a pic of the fountain in front of where the plagiarist, alcoholic, adulterer is buried.

Yeah, I know they've kept lists of PFLAP grads. That's how I figured they'd been doing it... without using any database/filter techniques. I doubt they have a current address for me, however. I told them to take me off of mailing lists at least 30 years ago.

Good deal.

Hi Extremist, I recently started a thread in the About the Way forum on the subject of Which is more or less saying what you're asking with different words. You could also go to Goodreads.com and search for books about spiritual abuse. There's also some memoirs from former Way Corps that you might find helpful. Of course, you probably have already identified and become aware of problems with TWI for yourself. Long ago, people here at GSC were also recommending The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. This book was published 31 years ago. Much research has been done since 1991. The International Cultic Studies Association has resources you can either send for or perhaps find in public libraries. Written by one of our own friends, Charlene Edge, a memoir Undertow, My Escape From the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of the Way International. Is listed on the ICSA website, but you probably can get it for less directly from Charlene or from any online bookseller in either paperback or kindle edition.