Rocky

Just ruminating once again on this. In Acts, why did local Christian communities support their pastors and traveling ministers like Paul, or Peter and Barnabas? There are clues in the (scripture) texts right? Did those ministers con their followers into believing they were worthy of undeserved gifts? Or... something else, like exchange of goods or services? Did they make it a social contract of sorts?

Perhaps very closely related to GASLIGHTING. Readers would do well to note how CULTS are not the only (manipulative) organizations to use these or other confidence games. I've run into them from employers and public education entities. Experience is a harsh teacher, but the critical thinking lessons learned are quite valuable. I suspect many organizations employing people do this. My second employer (a small retail chain for which I was hired as an accountant) after graduating from college controlled store managers in a similar way. The president/owner was deeply afraid of networking akin to unionization. She didn't call it "need basis." She simply knew it would jeopardize her empire if she wasn't able to control the information sharing. Guilt was (and perhaps still is) an effective method of psychological manipulation to ensure (or minimize the possibility) the scales on workers'/followers' eyes never fell away... allowing a person to KNOW the TRUTH which could then set them free. How convenient the CULT easily justified the luxuries granted to the one who bought the corporate plane, the conveniently available clandestine meeting place for sexually assaulting attractive young women followers (the bus/motorcoach) and the extravagant motorcycle Wierwille. Because, of course, he was revered. I wonder also how many "love offerings" Wierwille and Martindale were given when they traveled to region or limb meetings in country or overseas.

Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."

IOW, "who wants to know?" It wasn't a mistake on my part. It wasn't a mistake on your part either. It simply wasn't clear to me what you were getting at. Nevertheless, Waysider's contribution essentially cleared it all up.

I know. That's why it's cryptic as I read it. To whom was it attributed BY whom? Anyway, apparently Vlad said it, according to the news item Waysider provided. Thus, we get a bit of Vlad's self-justification for his ego-driven invasion of Ukraine. It also seems apparent how Vlad clearly projected HIS spiritual catastrophe onto "the west." Nevertheless, isn't this a political topic?

To whom is it attributed BY whom? Your post seems quite cryptic.

Hopefully, that something from within you is what drove you to seek out the Greasespot Café. Indeed, T-Bone, your analogy is apt. New reader, I hope you're interested in this adventure.

"The greater the knowledge, the greater the doubt." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe

How do they get cult members to work for free? Well, it wasn't necessarily promising 70 virgins upon fulfillment of the mission.

Pastors gotta find a better business model. If I was wanting to figure it out now, I'd be wanting to learn from John Pavlovitz. He spent 25 years as a pastor and became disillusioned with the church. But he still writes, still ministers, and has found ways to subsist.

Wonderful insight. Indeed, it's likely guilt and fear still enchain many. I hope they would begin to imagine life and Christianity differently than the constant grind of "we're right and everyone else proclaiming love for God is sinister." It's a depressing mental framework PFLAP, Wierwille and the insane subCULTure they established. What happened to freedom in Christ?

I appreciate your consideration, Thelonious-Hyphen Bone. Of course we live by faith, not by sight. My take is this is the case primarily because it's not available to live by sight (of God) at this time. My point in the comment you quoted was simply a recognition of the likely still murky awareness we have of what is or would be the Will of God. I distrust, therefore, Wierwille's obsession with precision and exactness (scientific and/or mathematical).

Frankly, that sounds like the making or muse for short stories, or novels, or perhaps an episode or two of the Twilight Zone.

This really seems out of place in this thread.

This DOES seem to be sealioning. Unrelated to the actual discussion.

Perhaps the title of a new subforum can be distilled from this statement.

WOW! Pretty sure Wierwille and Martindale taught (advanced class on PFLAP probably) animism. Sounds like ol' Vic was projecting.

I'm now reading Galit Atlas' book, Emotional Inheritance: A Therapist, Her Patients, and the Legacy of Trauma. The book may or may not be directly related to resilience, but a passage struck me as something to share here:

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Is that only or primarily a cliché? I just heard a Big Think YT clip on the subject. My big takeaway is the speaker declaring there is plenty of evidence power does change a person's brain. Because the clip is primarily about political power/systems, I won't post it here. However, with more than two decades of posts on GSC, it can be reasonably discerned from examination of this website how that was truly the case with Wierwille, Martindale, and Rivenbark.

For ME, it started with family upbringing and Catholic schools. IOW, I was ultimately conditioned to accept claims on the PFLAP green card because TWI came from within cultural framework that was familiar to me. A military WOW wandered, on October 31, 1974 into a fellowship in the Lajes Field (Azores) base chapel. He and I become friends. In June/July 75, I first took PFLAP. In August 75, my first ROA and one-year commitment as a PFLAP salesman. My initial military salary in 1973 was the huge sum of $307/month plus room and board. I started saving because I had plenty left over after living expenses. By the time I took PFLAP, I had saved more than $1k. Besides using some of it to travel to Ohio in 75, I donated much of my savings to TWI. The indoctrination had begun.

The entire comment posted above (not just my quote thereof) synthesized and concisely encapsules the (brainwashing) process in the mind of a TWI follower. From wordnik dot com: [brainwashing is] "The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion [i.e. The Word of God is the Will of God; a 12 session class with forced NON-questioning obedience; ROA yearly "music festival"; annual WOW outreach program; four-year Way Corps "training"/indoctrination program ostensibly to teach spiritual growth and leadership skills etc.], in order to develop a specific belief or motivation [and a fully committed cadre of "leaders."] In The Road Less Traveled, M. Scott Peck described and teaches a reader to reflect on her/his own road as a way to practice self-therapy. Our brother Skyrider demonstrated exactly that in his comment above. Critics, initially most prominently from other religious traditions within Christianity, labeled the brainwashing and sometimes described it but rarely examined its mechanisms in the exquisite detail as has been done in the thousands of posts/comments on GSC. This thread feels to me like a breakthrough synthesis for understanding Wierwille's intended subculture (cult) and its successors/spinoffs. Is it necessary to identify Wierwille's initial motivation as godly or not? IMO, not. It IS possible, however, to discern by its (and his) fruits. Realization in a person's life may become problematic. Recognition may challenge such persons' sense of belonging or identity (sense of self). For me, this journey began with the 1986-7 (mass?) exodus from twi as a result of letter signed by several former twi leaders. My next step was to continue home fellowship around the same teachings, followed in the early 1990s when I first read M. Scott Peck's books. Eventually, life interrupted the home bible fellowships because they had been decades of the same, ultimately boring, routine. Over the following three decades, I have read hundreds of books as I embraced the message in the first 5 verses of Proverbs 2. if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Among the things I found, psychological understanding is consistent with knowledge of God, even when I find it outside the bible. Anyway, I digress (hopefully to avoid boring you). I'll echo skyrider's close: Peace to all.

The ages you cited in your insanity on steroids thread were indeed filled with pressure (John 16:33) in my life. My only child was born in the early portion of that era. Those pressures exposed weaknesses in my life and motivated me search and to seek out wisdom well beyond what Wierwille/TWI taught (Proverbs 2:1-5). I'm most thankful for the path that I've been blessed to have before me since my youth. My first "professional" job entailed about three years of long-distance telecommunication in a support function for the USAF. I have no doubt that's why I am as comfortable as I have been over the years posting my thoughts on this forum. And hopefully, my travails in and since TWI have lent insight to some of what I post. Indeed, to my knowledge (somewhat enhanced by the world wide web), you are correct about GSC's role as the sole point of reference for exposing the darkness we endured from the cult. My thought at the moment is Trancechat and Waydale, though the impact of each was limited, were important stepping stones from which GSC learned. The moderators here have been extremely important in maintaining the movement forward. Even now, the incremental nature of increasing knowledge and understanding are apparent to me. On the thread Promised Relief: Broken Promises, earlier today I synthesized some of the development of my understanding of said increase. I also greatly appreciate how your insight, Skyrider, both rings true and enhances my understanding of said experience. God forbid that was your last post, though we have no control over how long we will live. What follows is from the other thread. I hesitate to use the quote function now because the GSC platform software would initially hide some of it... It occurs to me, in retrospect, the Promised Relief: Broken Promises directly ties in to the essence of twi as a counterfeit of Christian community. Twi never really was a modern day reenactment of the Book of Acts. It may have been an attempt thereof, but the manufactured mystique of Wierwille as the MOGFODAT [man of god for our day and time] preempted the overall effort (and qualified it as a CULT). It's NOW clear Wierwille did not eschew money (see I Tim 6:6-10). His ministry, from the inception of the film class version of PFLAP had the foundation of being a multi-level marketing scheme (Amway concept). It could reach out to many, but in doing so, it gave "The Great Man(TM)" a psychological profile he never overcame, including power over people. While it's apparent in Acts when certain collegial leaders were imperfect, as written about there in, they could still be reasonably interpreted as not predominantly motivated by the Love of Money(TM). How did Wierwille, Martindale, and Rivenbark differ from Peter or Paul? Wierwille got his name on buildings both at the Kansas campus and HQ; he got an airplane, a motorcoach (bus), and a motorcycle. All luxury items, at least two of which could be passed off as aiding the outreach of "God's Word." But clearly those items (all three) represented materialization of the TWI gilded era. And the bus was engineered (by way of social mechanisms) to further his USE of young women to feed his lust. For a time, by way of the social mechanism of the lockbox, prying eyes in the cult were kept in the dark about Wierwille's sexual escapades. Said lust was certainly a natural urge, but the power over enabled him to exercise that urge in ways incongruent to acceptable social norms. Martindale apparently believed Wierwille had authorized him to use young women sexually. Rivenbark, perhaps among other things, was an abusive master of the workforce at HQ. If prying eyes were to FIND OUT what Wierwille kept in his proverbial lockbox, his ability to control people by way of fear or guilt would be (and did) become at risk. As what exactly DID happen to Wierwille's successor, Loy Martindale. Which tragedy played out in a big way, with the Ohio civil courts forcing twi's hand and Martindale's exile.

But thank you for the invitation.

Well, according to generally accepted academic definitions of cults, I disagree with the claim REASON is a cult. Neither this claim nor a three hour YouTube clip reasonably or rationally assert reason is a cult. That's a heavy load to bare. I don't see you being able to make such a case on an internet forum thread of any kind. Supreme answer to which question, I now ask you. Wikipedia says the cult of reason was a French state-sponsored atheistic religion. I'm not sure of the significance of such history to this discussion. However, for good measure, I submit for your (all thread readers') consideration The Age of Reason. Commentators these days seem to believe Paine, a Deist, specifically criticized and denounced Christianity. Which he may have done. However, my view is him having specifically denounced superstition.