Rocky

Btw, someone close to my heart (ME) wrote this about UNDERTOW a few years ago: “Undertow is a gift to young people and their families who want to understand the inner workings of fundamentalist cults. Charlene Edge’s experience parallels much of my own twelve years as a follower of Victor Paul Wierwille’s ministry. Undertow sheds light on the decisions, questions, and longings that she encountered, and ultimately worked her way through. In the words of Canadian author Matshona Dhliwayo, ‘Books are kinder teachers than experience.’ May Undertow be a kinder teacher to you than Charlene’s seventeen years in The Way International were to her.” —Steve Muratore, publisher of award-winning political blog the Arizona Eagletarian

Elizabeth C. writes: I've read a lot of critiques of the research methods, unorthodox teachings, and spiritual abuse of the The Way International (TWI), but Undertow by Charlene Edge was the first look inside the research department I've ever seen. TWI billed itself as a research ministry. The introductory class focused on how to study the Bible, looking at Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words, examining the context surrounding key verses, or explaining historical customs. Sounds great, right? Well, it turns out behind this veneer were wrong assumptions, shoddy Greek, and half-baked theories propped up with the idea that someday someone would find a text to substantiate the teaching. Edge writes about her recruitment into the Way, her many years in different positions, and ultimately her realization that the research department was a sham. Her disillusionment was similar to what I felt when I ultimately left, and it was validating to read that her inside knowledge corroborated what I’d felt for so long. Many people have left TWI thinking that the original teachings were good, but something got corrupted over the years. Edge shows that the whole foundation was corrupt. In addition to the look inside the research department, I enjoyed learning more about events that I only remember from the perspective of a small child. My parents joined around the same time as Edge, so it was interesting to read an experience similar to their early days. I also liked how she described the way Wierwille often accused people of not being spiritually on top of things. This vague standard continues to contribute to my anxiety, and it was helpful to see numerous examples of people being criticized over this. This memoir is for you whether you simply like reading about cults or especially if you’re a former member of TWI or one of the splinter groups. It’s available from Edge’s website or anywhere books are sold.

Hey Exidor, I haven't viewed the movie though I first heard about it weeks ago. IMO, the key to your post is "another side to the story." Do you know if the movie claims to be a true and factual rendering of the history in question? All stories telling about events which happened have "another side," don't they whether they claim to be a faithful? Everybody who witnessed the event(s) in question remember them differently to some degree? By all means, tell your side of the story wherever and whenever you can.

Please explain why YOU BELIEVE it's not remotely true?

The author, in this brief video, connects the problem to various abuses, including sexual abuse. I'm on my way to my local public library to pick up a copy of Jesus and John Wayne.

How human of them.

With respect, your recent posts on this thread suggest you have NOT dropped your stake in this subject years ago. The purpose of discussion is not to win. Chockful isn't likely to change your position, unless something like happened to Paul on the road to Damascus happens to you. Likewise, you're not going to change his position unless... IOW, why do your comments sound like you haven't let go of the subject? I don't GAF what anyone's position is on this topic. I just feel compelled to make the point about discussion not being a contact sport.

I seem to remember (vaguely) there having been problems with ham making people sick because it had been left at unhealthful temps.

As do I. Embarrassing is maybe too kind of a word for how I see it.

Quite understandable. I generally stay away from videos that long, at least on discussion/lecture type formats. This one, I started listening and found it quite compelling.

Once upon a time there was a tavern...

And wasn't there a recent thread about Loy claiming weakness defeats strength? If that isn't cultic bullshonta, nothing is.

Insight on M and A?

Related to a sense of belonging: A couple of years ago (I don't remember how many) I learned about Guy Winch, ABOUT THE AUTHOR Guy Winch is a licensed psychologist who is a leading advocate for integrating the science of emotional health into our daily lives. His three TED Talks have been viewed over 20 million times, and his science-based self-help books have been translated into 26 languages. He also writes the Squeaky Wheel blog for PsychologyToday.com and has a private practice in New York City. Today, I received an email newsletter from him. The following is an excerpt from the newsletter" What We Tend to Get Wrong about Loneliness 1. We think loneliness is most common among older adults but the loneliest cohort today are actually 18-30 year-olds. 2. We don't realize how dangerous loneliness is. Chronic loneliness poses as big a risk to our long term health and longevity as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. In last month's poll 60% of you knew that but that number is much lower in the general population. Indeed, as per this new study, loneliness poses a risk for all adults . 3. Loneliness traps us. We feel like nobody cares so we're extremely hesitant to reach out to the those who could make us feel connected (see my TED Talk for how I 'got loneliness wrong'). Why we get it wrong 1. We tend to think loneliness is about the quantity of a person's connections but it's about the quality. Loneliness is defined subjectively. What matters is whether you feel connected to the people around you (many lonely people are married or live with families and roommates). 2. We evolved in nomadic tribes in which loneliness signaled that we were about to be kicked out (a death sentence). As a result, loneliness induces a strong physiological stress response that impairs the function of our immune system and increase our risk of illness, disease and an early death. [i.e. mark and avoid] 3. Loneliness is associated with two perceptual distortions that discourage us from reaching out even though we need to do so: (more at the linked newsletter)

Does rationalizing how one is not wrong equate to being offended?

Yes, it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exvangelical of people who have left evangelicalism, especially white evangelical churches in the United States, for atheism, agnosticism, progressive Christianity, or any other religious belief, or lack thereof.[1][2][3] The hashtag #exvangelical was coined by Blake Chastain in 2016 to make "a safe space for people to find solidarity with others who have gone through similar experiences."[1] People in the movement are called "exvangelicals" or "exvies." Many attribute their departure to experiences of homophobia, misogyny, and racism in evangelicalism, , or to a personal crisis of faith such as sexual abuse in a religious setting and/or by a religious leader or volunteer (often which was ignored, actively covered up, and in some cases the victim was subject to DARVO treatment). The movement is disseminated largely via podcasts. Popular exvangelical podcasts include Almost Heretical, Straight White American Jesus, and Chastain's podcast Exvangelical. Have any of you heard of the term exvangelical?

This one, about Du Mez' book Jesus and John Wayne, is a longer interview/discussion at UChicago Divinity School. White evangelicalism and toxic masculinity are the main themes of the book.

Holy Carp! I think I love this woman... not in a sexual way. She's takes apart White Evangelicalism.

It's ALL bull$ hit. Occam's razor, to me, suggests it's ALL nothing more/less than rationalization. Why do people fall for it? That's not an easy question to answer. I suspect academics (philosophers/psychologists/sociologists) have been pondering it for years. Maybe 200 years or more.

YES! Martindale, IMO, was the epitome of Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. I've seen it in my life. I've seen it in local politics. It's reality. I see the verses Twinky highlighted trying to get that message about vulnerability across. The antithesis thereof, is, IMO, captured in much of what Brené Brown discovered in her research and wrote about with tremendous authenticity. Primatologist Frans de Waal illustrated it best when he described how Alpha males are NOT bullies. His research demonstrates this when he states, "the smallest male, when he has the right friends and keeps them happy, or he has female support, he can be the alpha." How does one keep his friends happy and get support from the females? It's certainly not rocket science. Instead, it's social psychology. IOW, you got more with honey than with vinegar. There's a LOT to the concept of vulnerability being a demonstration of strength.

A worthy goal. Not answerable in quick sound bites. I suspect this is why ideally it's something to start building for children early in life. Among possible objectives/steps: Realization of the fact: everyone gets conned. That's what magicians do just for entertainment. Perhaps a foundational reality to teach could deal with how a person's attention is diverted to what others want to convince you has happened, will happen, or is really now happening. Further, discussion of the role of early childhood education focusing on critical thinking skills. Then, post secondary education exploring the reason broad liberal arts courses are graduation requirements, including humanities, social sciences, foreign languages, philosophy and mathematics. IOW, in my view, there's no easy fix. Doesn't mean there's no fix, it's just not easy. Might boil down to motivating individuals to become life long learners... which for many gets set aside when the necessities of life crowd them out.

Nice sarcasm by both chockful and waysider.