Rocky

It doesn't appear from that comment, Mike, that you got the intended meaning of Waysider's comment on which you replied. Wierwille had an inkling about the significance of the cultural issues of the time (Orientalisms), BUT there had to have been huge gaps btwn what he imagined and the actual cultures. As I understood it and him, the Orientalisms were interpreted as if they all came from one point in time. But what was the actual duration between when the first books to have been adopted into the CANON and the last? There had to have been cultural changes in that time frame. Further, the premise of Avalos' scholarship seems to realize the entire way to view those writings is anachronistic as of now. Not only so, but technology advances since the advent of the printing press (in western civilization, around the year 1440), have been unfathomably HUGE. IOW, the paradigm under which you try to interpret God has shifted well beyond what your (our) imagination(s) singularly and collectively have even begun to grasp. Wierwille may have imagined some of it, but not very much. So, I surmise/infer/conclude that Charlene's Undertow book barely scratches the surface of the spirituality changes we've encountered in the last 50 or so years. Therefore, while your claim about what "prophets of God" may have been trying to get people to come to grips with is still far short of reality. I can't say you're entirely off track, just still far, far short of the goal.

Checking now on Amazon and hardback is now up to $57 (used). But... I did receive your email.

LOL! As if anyone could overcome Victor Wierwille's domineering malignant narcissism.

Creeepy YES!

Goodreads dot com says, about Avalos: Since his arrival at Iowa State, Avalos has become an internationally-recognized critic of Intelligent Design creationism, and he is often linked with Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, the advocate of Intelligent Design who was denied tenure at Iowa State University in 2007. Avalos co-authored a statement against Intelligent Design in 2005, which was eventually signed by over 130 faculty members at Iowa State University. That faculty statement became a model for other statements at the University of Northern Iowa and at the University of Iowa. Gonzalez and Avalos are both featured in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008). Which movie is available (for no charge) on YouTube. It's an hour and 39 minutes. But it is political on its face.

Avalos' book sounds VERY intriguing. Unfortunately, I cannot find this title in either of the public libraries I regularly borrow from and Amazon sells it for (hardcover) $29 and (kindle) $31. Do you know where I might find it for less?

I personally would argue similar but somewhat differently, that the Bible is reasonable to consider in the context of cultural anthropology. Anthropology is the study of the human as at once an individual, a product of society, and a maker of history and culture. It’s the nature of the human condition to live within structures of symbol, belief, and power of our own fashioning: religion, art, gender, war, ecosystems, race relations, embodiment, kinship, science, colonialism, language, nations and states, play, subsistence strategies, mass media, illness, pain, and pleasure. In a word, culture.

Ewww! Talk about brainwashing!

OTOH, your reflection on your impressions, experience, and your friend's impressions say a lot. Thanks for saying it.

Criminy! The "general story" is specific nonsense. I'd ask why you don't simply realize a person (twig leader) doesn't really provide "spiritual protection" for "his people." S/he may pray for his/her friends but excellence arising from intention might rather highlight GOD protecting people. No? Yes? Stories didn't overemphasize anything, IMO. Victor's private interpretation skewed both the writers/performers and the audience understanding. In terms of story, which can effectively teach or impress or illuminate in an observer's mind and understanding, there was no overemphasis. There was only distorted understanding of the function of storytelling. Sorry if I sounded too condescending.

How would you describe someone who lies to you? Who riles you up? Who makes you anxious and afraid? Who questions whether you’re good enough? Who has preposterous blindspots and disturbing biases? Who prods you to suspect the worst of others? Who tricks you into doing things you’ll regret? Who encourages your worst impulses? But this is what our mind does to us on a daily basis! #### How much thought have you given to the scripture in Ephesians 4 admonishing you (us) to not be tossed about with every wind of doctrine? Why and how would that be an issue of concern? How easily do you get distracted from what you intend to do or pay attention to?

That's not EVEN what this thread was intended to do. Discussion, not argumentation.

Good morning to you too, kind sir. This is just one of the influences.

Hmmmm.... oh, really?

Whether this will successfully inoculate anyone against getting conned, including into joining a cult, is yet to be seen. Given the marketing material surrounding this very recently published book, the authors seem to think it might. You MIGHT be able to find this book in your local public library... or to ask them to purchase it. Also, I listened to a podcast about the subject this morning. The podcast mentions the gorilla experiment. Said experiment illustrates the power of misdirection (of attention). The misdirection concept relates directly to the instruction during PFLAP classes to hold all questions until the end. https://behavioralgrooves.podbean.com/e/why-we-fall-for-fraud/

Truth!

That's not the question. Of course you have SOME DEGREE of free will. But do you have 100 percent, unqualified free will? Do you ever do anything, take any actions, make any decisions, contrary to what you wanted to do? Also, on the tangential topic of whether Victor Wierwille conned you (and me) and thousands of others, I recommend this newly released book. Nobody's Fool: Why We Get Taken In and What We Can Do About It. You might be able to find it in your local public library.

Good job, Mike. The opposite of persuasion. One might think if you actually wanted to make positive headway in your Quixotic endeavors on GSC, you'd recognize THIS is an encouragement to YOU.

And I'm confident he was still projecting. No doubt Loy and twi could have gotten sued, but I doubt the major studio(s) cared because who knew about the spirits of the athletes besides people in the cult?

IIRC, Loy bragged about the movie Staying Alive having copied from AotS. But it appears Staying Alive came out in 1983. I'm pretty sure that was WELL before Loy's narcissistic wannabe dance/video masterpiece. It looks like Loy was doing some projecting on that one.

What feeds guilt and shame is a deep desire to belong, a survival issue for any social animal. The greatest underlying worry is rejection by the group. De Waal, Frans . Mama's Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves (p. 154). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition. I offer the quote from Mama's Last Hug for anyone's consideration. Clearly, when I started this topic/thread, I was not clear enough to get my point across. And then there was Bolshevik who seemed to be looking for ways to obscure anyone else's points about just about everything.

I'm thinking about how big of a PITA you often are. BTW, where was/is Victor Wierwille's peer reviews on his private interpretations of scripture?