Rocky

I listened to about seven or eight minutes. It felt to me like there was a very serious narcissistic overtone. In my life these days, I write and a think in terms of what will make sense to my readers or listeners. I may describe (I DO describe) things I've observed and what it means to the people I am writing or speaking to. But Victor was always speaking about what he was doing. The implied meaning being that he was doing the will of God. The subtext was adoration of the MOG rather than empowerment of his listeners.

Agree. I also don't think there is a wrong way to leave either. As long as it is on your own terms.

On Sunday, I met Another Dan (facebook friend Dan Haas) face to face for the first time. We've chatted many times online. It was a joy to get to see each other's face. I also met a few more former followers of twi (and former way corps). We shared a few war stories and the joys of grandchildren. For me, 2011 has been a fruitful year, bountiful and greatly enjoyed. I established a brand and a widely read blog with the vision to grow to have a wider reach with an expanded team effort in 2012 and beyond. I'm excited for the path I see in front of me. Those who want to pop in from time to time to check on my progress can find me at "Arizona Eagletarian"

good points. also very good points.

Why does it matter? We do know that he "borrowed" ideas from plenty of other people. a quick look at the wikipedia article on Barth shows that he was widely respected as a great 20th century philosopher/theologian who put several unconventional ideas forth. It's not unreasonable to figure he met the guy, whether Barth thought it was a big deal or not.

Btw, how EVIL is the concept of the "doulos?" Slave to the Lord in concept but slave to the TWI hierarchy in practice. No thank you. The entire concept, as I recall (having left twi 25 years ago) as it was taught and practiced, was counter to the dignity of the individual, made a mockery of free will and engendered mental laziness (since the doulos only had to follow orders, not figure things out for her/himself).

Yeah, that would cover it. :)

Might some have found new direction in their lives without being involved in a local church, solace in scripture reading, prayer and family-centered joys? Transitions in life can bring upheaval and life can seem for a time like it's in shambles. Emerging from those times, a man or woman can find new direction for service and meaning and a higher calling outside of what social and religious structures he or she had become familiar (and comfortable) with. Ultimately, finding a life's calling in service to something bigger than yourself, be it God, service to society or whatever. For a few years, I attended a church and became close with an assistant pastor who had known a few others who had been involved with twi. Eventually, that church grew to be a weary experience for me. I'm happy and believe I've found my calling, at least for now. But am not involved with any church or ministry.

Not all community organizers take things to that extreme. And, btw, anyone who was politically to the left of Attila the Hun was also demonized by Wierwille... and that much continues with many former followers.

Thanks Ham. :)

Nailed it.

That's tremendous. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine! And by God it's going to dispel darkness. Amen and amen! You can get rid of a lot of it. Enough to where you can live a life that is not dominated by habits and rituals (yes, there were rituals) of life in TWI. And you can keep what you want to keep. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good. :) There is a lot of diversity of paths taken and beliefs held by people after twi. And I think that's wonderful.

I'm not suggesting otherwise concerning a ministry. However, actual trees DO compartmentalize and when the overall tree is vigorous and healthy, the diseased part is isolated (compartmentalized) and the tree might still produce fruit. It is just an observation on trees, not intended to be a rationalization or justification of anyone's behavior. And people DO compartmentalize also. I'm not sure it's something that you can teach people not to do as individuals.

It's the concept of compartmentalization.

Bingo! First off, this was an authoritarian sub-culture. see Altameyer's work, The Authoritarians. Secondly, the doctrine (an example of which was cited above by waysider) was (IMO intentionally) established to rationalize and/or self-justify the narcissistic behavior of TWIs authoritarian power structure. I used "power structure" intentionally rather than "leadership" because leadership, biblically speaking, was the exact opposite of self-serving. I specifically chose to NOT become career military, even though I served one hitch in the USAF, because I did not envision myself as a serf in an authoritarian culture. I left TWI when I recognized that the accountability in that subculture was bass ackward. Instead of the power structure being accountable to those the bible said should be served (the people in the fellowships), in TWI, it was overtly the opposite.

yes, it is. Targeting children, regardless of gender, is using and abusing vulnerable people. Martin Buber (Hebrew: מרטין בובר‎; February 8, 1878 – June 13, 1965) was an Austrian-born Jewish philosopher best known for his philosophy of dialogue, a form of religious existentialism centered on the distinction between the I-Thou relationship and the I-It relationship. To Wierwille, the target was an IT, not a THOU. Treating a person as "Thou" was to acknowledge and accept the dignity of the particular individual. Then, the other person is important in and or herself or himself as opposed to what purpose he or she fulfilled in relation to me.

I couldn't even "get" calculus as a sophomore undergrad. Probably the hardest class I ever took., besides advanced accounting. I sometimes dream of what it would be like to earn a law degree... So, corngradumation HAM!

did you try looking Ken Sudduth up on facebook?

Keith, Ken Sudduth is on facebook. Have you tried to reach him there? (I had misspelled his name)

I suspect that it was more his decision having seen how Wierwille got people in a religious organization to do political organizing field work. He may have gotten feedback from people in Maine who recognized the implications of that particular problematic arrangement. It's not that other religious organizations haven't blurred (crossed) the line between political and religious activity (on both sides of the political spectrum). Rather, this was incredibly blatant given the fact that TWI was, at that time, a quickly growing, but still VERY small religious group. And a more "mature" religious group probably would have had the smarts to find ways to make it less obvious that they were sending their religious volunteers to do political field work.

It ain't just kids that do that. It's very human and very common. And I'd say it was likely intended to do both what Mstar said as well as to water down his experience with TWI.

This isn't the only website that links Hayes with TWI. I've googled myself... not only do I find things about (and written by) me, but there are several other people with the same name in the US, including some interesting and accomplished people. It's an odd feeling to read one's own name associated with other people's exploits and accomplishments. Fortunately, all of what I've found about the others with my name is good stuff. But that also goes to the question of how you can be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all. :)

I had enough by Christmas of interim year. However, I thought it was my fault. It took about five more years before I realized it wasn't me but the program. Life goes on. :)

March Forth!

And a happy birthday to our friend Tom Strange! Sure would be good to see you on facebook brother. :)