Rocky

Indeed, TWI became, in practice, what Wierwille demonstrated in practice. There was a time or two when his wrath was directed at me. SOOO many years ago. Thankfully, many years ago.

Are they still doing that ning site? Btw, back in 1986, one of the first things I figured out was how twi had accountability bass-ackward. In Acts and in Paul's epistles, accountability of the ministers to those they SERVED (not lorded over) is paramount. Yet, twi had us going in reverse on that concept.

Never forget what Yogi Berra said: "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Bottom line, as I see it, is the same as your bottom line on this. It all presupposes... Frankly, however, I disagree on whether Wierwille led by example. TWI became what he lived as that example, a corrupt ministry that used people for personal gain and sexual gratification.

I'd say my biggest AMEN to what LindaZ wrote. But, of course, Chockfull and Skyrider also had tremendous insight. To Skyrider and the thread he linked to, on Wierwille's rants, I'd say WOW. By the way, Skyrider -- dude, WRITE your book. You really have something that needs to be told. Of course, I would say AMEN to what everyone else posted in their comments too.

I don't go to any church any more. No bible study. In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years. Don't feel a need to be involved in any of it any more. I don't knock people who do attend... I guess each has to work out their own salvation, or something like that. But when, because of current affairs (news reporting) or talking to people in the course of my life, I hear or read or think about things people believe, many times the Catholic Church stuff seems pretty weird. Of course, so does a lot of other things people do because of religion.

Yep. No argument from me on any of that.

Perhaps you meant to say, "I ASSUME" that Robert Schuller's Chrystal Cathedral has security. But I would ask whether you exercised any level of diligence to verify whether or to what extent your assumption had any validity. You could always call them and ask. Chrystal Cathedral

Not difficult to imagine at all. I remember in the later 1980s, after having made the break from TWI, but still being interested in fellowshipping with the people who left at the same time -- but before offshoots had really developed into any kind of semi-sophisticated system. At that time, I vividly recall imagining that twi would become a legalistic organization. That's the word I remember using -- legalistic. But I thought it would take longer to get there. Of course, I had not, by then, really come to grips with how outrageously mental Martindale was. So, I missed the time frame and didn't really put my imagination into developing the details, but 25 years ago, I saw it heading in that direction. And there is no question that your description of the social isolation is very much on the mark.

Actually, it looks like you are already working on the book whether you know it or not. You have a rough outline already set forth. You've been writing early drafts of various aspects of it on GSC for some time. You might be surprised how natural it comes out from here. When I first started writing (mid 1990s, essays/op-ed columns mainly), I had to sit down to the keyboard and type or else it would spill out all over the floor in front of me... That's how I described it to people when they asked me how I got started. I've not yet published a book, but I have a first draft of the manuscript already written. It chronicles the independent redistricting process in Arizona from December 2010 through adoption of the maps that are in use for the current election cycle. Americans throughout the country will see independent redistricting be adopted by citizen initiative in many states before the next redistricting cycle begins in 2021. Not that I will have anything to do with it other than to have described what took place in Arizona this time. I can say without equivocation that the practice I had writing about my 12 year experience in TWI, (the writing beginning in the Fall of 1997 or so when I found Trancenet/Trancechat) was invaluable to me. It doesn't even matter if anyone ever read what I wrote. It did a lot for me. The insight I gained reflecting on the subtleties of the subculture/indoctrination/social interaction (and some of the same or similar things you mentioned in your list) helped me develop insight on interactions in political environments and situations. So, my encouragement to you is -- WRITE. Write YOUR story. It's a book that needs to be written. You will be better for it. And as the proverb (Prov 18:16) says, A man's gift makes room for him. Those who need to know your story will find it.

Indeed, that indoctrination was powerful. I chuckle (only mildly) reading your description of the encounter in 1971 and your stubbornness. That WAS 41 years ago. I didn't learn anything about self-awareness, introspection and self-reflection until I was in my mid-30s. We were, most certainly just kids. Whatever led us to TWI certainly isn't as important as that we can reflect and re-evaluate our experience now. Frankly, I also smile warmly at reading that description which to me is evidence that you've done a wonderful job at reflection and putting more of the pieces of the puzzle together now. Same for Skyrider's description of life on the wheat farm. My experience, on the other hand, was a more or less typical big city experience in a single parent family most of the time. My experiences were focused on academics and a couple of extra-curricular activities. Clarinet lessons in 4th grade; choir all four years of high school, drama club with minor forays into JV wrestling and baseball. Those experiences didn't give me the insight you got, Skyrider, but gave me a foundation upon which to understand life once I was exposed to it. And even some of the way corps in residence experience was beneficial, despite being less than optimal in how it was conducted. Anyway, we are the sum total of our education and experiences up until today. I'm also pretty thankful for greasespot and its predecessor forums for having given me a platform to develop my writing skills by writing about the 12 years I spent involved with TWI. I have a book or two that are waiting to be written, though not likely about TWI.

I don't read the bible much, but when I do, I prefer the New International Version.

Every single one of the comments on this thread are tremendous with insight. I only wish I had seen those red flags. Not that I would have been any more capable than anyone else to do anything about it. The only serious thought along those lines I remember having was at the ROA or corpse week the first year 9th corps was in res. I remember thinking it would be nice to have a life where I could make the decisions on the direction I would choose to go. Of course, with all the indoctrination about being a doulos, that ended up being just a fleeting thought. I was still in my early 20s then and didn't have the life experience or insight to identify the list of red flags skyrider named. Even though in my late 50s, those all seem incredibly obvious. Another point about this thread, it doesn't feel like complaining. Rather, it's genuine reflection on what we went through. Don't get me wrong. If someone wants or needs to express deep feelings about their experiences, I'm all for it. Bravo to each of you.

I believe there is something to that explanation. The only thing I am certain about in this discussion is that none of us will be able to do anything other than say what we believe we did, what we believe took place, or what we do not believe. Can there be any tangible, scientific proof to any of these notions or ideas? I don't think so. But if anyone can prove me wrong, well, I'd be interested in hearing how that could be done.

Just so no one misinterprets my intent, it is just to throw my two cents worth into the discussion. While there clearly is NO new thing under the sun, there are new things to each of us from time to time. Raf's contribution, to start this thread, was a new way for me to look at the situation. For me to describe, with any degree of confidence that I would be truthfully analyzing my experience and actions during my time involved with TWI. (I did not continue the practices of sit, tongues with interpretation and prophecy long after splitting off into loosely affiliated home groups. Eventually even those grew tedious and repetitive and boring, hence non-productive.. I encountered pentecostal groups prior to twi that tried to lead me into sit, but didn't succeed. Ultimately, I think I tried not to immitate anyone. There may have been some inspiration. but it could also belargely made up. My bottom line is that I didn't know I was inspired ir making it up.

The factors that may have been an influence for longevity generally include nutrition, exercise, and rest. In terms of nutrition, one would have to study what was available for them to eat. How much animal derived food did they have and how much processing did they subject it to? They probably weren't putting a whole laboratory worth of chemicals in their food. They may have had a wide range of herbs and grains and fruit. Because they had no where near the amount of population then that we have now, they didn't need to have elaborate factory farms that mass produce poultry, shove animals in overcrowded barns where they ended up hip deep in feces. And most people had to actually do hard work to make a living. That's why I think they may have lived longer in the earlier days of humanity. Proximity of larger populations and raising and processing animals for food all had to be handled carefully to prevent food borne illness. Since they may not have had any kind of sophisticated medical practices back in their day. I might be rambling...

Where have you been hangin' out to get that impression?

My hunch about the topic of this thread: sense of belonging. Feeling as though one belongs to a team that is committed to a higher purpose or goal is a powerful motivator. That's why they use expressions suggesting those who have remained are part of some special "remnant."

Partially off topic, partially on topic. This I suppose, is a tangent. How many of you (and by extension, them) read Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach in high school or early adulthood? We all face fears, more so when faced with challenges to our livelihood and security. But if we live our lives as always reaching for a higher purpose, some door eventually opens through which we can walk and build and grow and have greater impact toward a higher purpose. I think LindaZ painted a fair picture of what many may face. Do they have fears about what if situations? Or do they have something toward which they can stretch out and become? Or be like the bird who learns to fly and in doing soars over the landscape and can see opportunity from a higher perspective? For me, it's genuine involvement in polical campaigns and races, issues and candidates. Develop messages and messaging that inspire positive political action. But it could be anything worthwhile. Establish a manufacturing business for items of which you've had a passion for years. The possibilities are endless. <3

Rumination -- chewing it over and over. Reflection -- a thought, idea or opinion formed as a result of meditation. We had a LOT of experiences in TWI. Some of those experiences repeated over and over and over and over in similar if not nearly identical ways. When we first went through those experiences, most of us as young adults perhaps (I was 19 when I first got involved with TWI) we interpreted those experiences pretty much as we were told or according to expectations we had somehow developed. Eventually, we were no longer just kids. Nagging dissatisfaction, coupled with learning from sources outside of the subculture into which we had voluntarily assimilated may have caused us to begin questioning the original interpretations and expectations. Some of us then post to Greasespot as a way of processing and reprocessing the replays of those experiences. Pardon my rambling. Just thinking about how posting to greasespot and preceeding forums helped me reprocess the twelve years I was in TWI. And subject to that reprocessing and re-imagining what it all really meant, I was able to assert independence from that subculture. Okay, that's all I have for now... Thanks for listening. :)

I probably wasn't clear that People of the Lie and Road Less Traveled are two separate books. Indeed, I agree mindfulness and reflection are helpful. :)

That he can't see any of it in himself doesn't make it any less poignant and applicable. It's extremely difficult for any of us to see stuff like that in ourselves. That's the whole purpose of the psychological defense mechanism we know as denial, isn't it? It's been several years since I've read much about this subject, but among the authors that address it are M. Scott Peck (in his books like The Road Less Traveled and People of the Lie) and Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence). Self-awareness is often very difficult and raising awareness of areas of our (emotional and psychological) self that need to be healed is hard work. It's often a lot easier to see it in others.

What you have described as your experience -- that was objectionable to you -- is not socialism, but fascism. You're not mad about what you experienced while involved in twi? Really? Do you even read what you write at GSC? By the way, socialism is NOT communism. Use the word "commune" all you want, but you're still describing something that does not fit with the word (socialism) you want to label it. Socialism has been in practice in the USA since before the Declaration of Independence. There is probably no other word more misunderstood in American civics.

That was my impression also. I think it's dramatically OFF POINT/OFF THE MARK (sorry for raising my voice just for a second) to equate TWI with Socialism. There is a dramatic range of variation in what amounts to socialism in practice. Democratic socialism, where the voice of the people to say what the government is does and doesn't do is FAR from what any of us experienced in TWI. On the other hand, despotism comes in a variety of governmental forms from communism to fascism to capitalist oligarchy and plutocracy. So, I would encourage you, Skyrider, to figure out what it is you are really mad about and stick to working through those issues. If you're mad about socialism, fine. But you seem to be mixing up issues. Rugged individualism really means that in society we applaud losing. We condemn those who must not be believing correctly. Does that sound at all familiar?

"""☆¸.•°*”˜˜”*°•.¸☆ ★ ☆¸.•°*”˜˜”*°•.¸☆ ╔╗╔╦══╦═╦═╦╗╔╗ ★ ★ ★ ★☆☆★ ║╚╝║══║═║═║╚╝║ ☆¸.•°*”˜˜”*°•.¸☆ ║╔╗║╔╗║╔╣╔╩╗╔╝ ★ B I R T H D A Y ☆ ╚╝╚╩╝╚╩╝╚╝═╚╝ ☆★☆★☆ ★☆☆ Excie! Hugs and warm fuzzies and fireworks. We're all wacky! :)

Some wonderful insight. Twi is not the only place people get sidetracked from the life they ultimately want to build. We're wiser for the experience regardless of regrets we might have about being hoodwinked. It is a fact that young adults don't often have much of an idea of what they want to make of their life. Experience, and hard times build patience and wisdom. On balance, can you move forward in the direction you want to go in life? If so, that's a lot to be thankful for. :)