Rocky

I have to figure you know/knew what message you were trying to get across with that post/comment. But I sure as heck can't discern what that message/idea was or may have been. By all means, please expound further.

Please explain further. How do or would you define freedom, in the context of what you're trying to communicate here. There's freedom OF something and freedom FROM other thing(s). Thanks.

The primary (and underlying) point I intended in the first posts on this thread was how Victor Wierwille and Loy C Martindale presented themselves to followers in extremely INAUTHENTIC ways. My point was not to color them unforgivable, for they were/are human. What they were NOT is honest brokers of God to followers who purchased their classes and books and who took part in their outreach and leadership training programs. Self-deprecating humor is, or can be, a much more authentic way to CONNECT emotionally.

This seems scarier than Idalia was. https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/08/28/record-heat-gulf-coast-water-temperatures/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNjkzMzY4MDAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNjk0NzUwMzk5LCJpYXQiOjE2OTMzNjgwMDAsImp0aSI6IjgwMGFkY2ZkLTBlNzItNDhlNi05OGQ2LWU1MGZjODA1Y2VmMyIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS93ZWF0aGVyLzIwMjMvMDgvMjgvcmVjb3JkLWhlYXQtZ3VsZi1jb2FzdC13YXRlci10ZW1wZXJhdHVyZXMvIn0.MxEg0KirYv_yN9cNpV_5WPyCfr1L1aOpb6ylK_0EgGM

Forgiveness and critical analysis of the Victor Wierwille private interpretation ministry are complicated matters. Doing so requires assessment of the emotional fallout on the people who had been subject to abuse, whether it was emotional abuse or sexual abuse or anything else. Nevertheless, I appreciate your feedback, STL.

Well... thank you, you made an excellent point. 1) I didn't say they were undeserving of forgiveness. I didn't think I was implying it either. 2) Looking back on the post and comments I made above, I'm wondering how you may have come to conclude, or even infer I was equating either of them to murderers. If you'd be so kind, I would appreciate you expounding about that on this thread. 3) Considering the two decades of people writing about their experiences on GSC, let me clarify my intent as being to criticize the actions each of the two of them took as cult leaders, and criticize the cult structure and conduct related thereto. There's plenty to show and tell about the power dynamics in and of themselves. 4) Again, thank you for reading and watching the videos.

Here's another thing to consider. Intuitively, we know politics is as polarized as ever in today's society. Why is that? Could it be related to something Victor W and other religious leaders pushed about us all being in the world but not of the world? Is that why so many people are immune to exploring and considering common ground?

Wierwille's private interpretation ministry established outreach programs. WOW Ambassadors made commitments of a year at a time to go in teams of about 4 at a time to a city or town to sell the foundational class and try to graft new believers onto The Way Tree. Then there was the Way Corps leadership training program. Colloquially referred to at times by former followers as the Way Corpse. That program was sold (or appealed to) as for committed Bible believers who wanted to be and do their best for God. The training consisted of a year at a time in a ministry location (i.e. HQ in New Knoxville, OH; The Way College of Emporia, in Kansas a ranch in Gunnison, CO and a campus in Rome City, IN) Much of the abusive conduct wannabe leaders endured and learned to repeat took place in the WOW Ambassador and Way Corps programs.

Victor seized on things he read in the Bible to highlight and accentuate what he wanted to do and to be. WE were "called out." WE were in the world, but NOT "of the world." He traveled around to "bless the believers" and teach the "greatness of the Word of God." But he was an alcoholic, consumed filtered Kool menthol cigarettes like a factory smokestack, and acted like he was the King to whom every young, attractive female believer BELONGED. As such, he promulgated unwritten norms according to which men and women followers would procure (often willing) sex partners. Wierwille established substantial revenue streams by way of selling classes, books and pamphlets, and teaching that God won't even spit in your direction unless you "abundantly share" more than 10 percent of your meager earnings... believers were often expected to donate at least 15 percent.

My latest realization regarding Victor Wierwille and his ministry of private interpretation: We are ALL inherently fallible. Victor Wierwille and Loy C Martindale were and are at least as fallible as I am and I them. So what was it about each of them that made them cult leaders? Not their private interpretations on the Bible, though I now also believe the Bible is not the only way to human enlightenment. No, what I see about them that is and was so distasteful and probably the essence of the ungodliness or anti-godliness of each can be fairly summed up in their hubris. This may or may not be a fallacy, but have you ever noticed that the best comedians and satirists in our modern culture exercise a distinct level of anti-arrogance, iow, they are unassuming and unpretentious. Most significantly self-deprecating. Can one have adequate and appropriate levels of confidence and still express self-deprecation? Authenticity, which I believe Victor Wierwille had serious deficits in, requires willingness to be openly vulnerable to and with the people you hope to engage, teach, and fellowship with. (See books by Brené Brown, such as https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13588356-daring-greatly and https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23500254-the-power-of-vulnerability and https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58330567-atlas-of-the-heart and several more) Here's the nugget. Victor taught us a way of believing and living which was and is counter-social. That's cultic. The foundation was not God. Not Jesus Christ. They were side issues. The essence of the private interpretation ministry of Victor Wierwille was Victor Wierwille as THE mogfodat. HIS place in the hierarchy was at the top. His social subculture had (and maybe still has, IDK) practices and unwritten rules/beliefs that revolved around Victor's wants and needs. There was so much extraneous emotional noise (subterfuge) too few followers figured it out at a time when they could come together to effect a change in the "corporate culture." Yes, people figured it out. But when they did, they either left on their own or were shunned, excommunicated, (and if employed by the organization) fired, and in the jargon of the cult itself, "Marked and Avoided." The last expression having come from somewhere inside the Bible itself, in that way strengthening the illusion the cult was somehow based on godliness as contained in the Bible.

We should ALL (including Mike) consider how this one applies to us.

I hope you'll be prepared in the unfortunate even Idalia takes a sharp right turn. Much love to friends in the Orlando and Tampa/St Pete metro areas too.

Good one!

I love it. However, with the one caveat that I haven't put enough study into the perspective you've shared to say I can agree with it without reservation. Yet, on the surface, it makes sense to me. Thanks again.

Wonderfully eloquent way to envision the story nature of scriptures. I came to a personal realization/recognition not too very long ago that the Bible is an anthology of stories. I see the main truth as being since we are humans, in a radically different culture than then, all we can do is imagine. And I go back to my current favorite passage Proverbs 2:1-5. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

At least massive trust in terms of how we (I) understand what it would take. Not only after enduring temptations for 30 years, but cultivating enough trust (and, I suppose also love) in the Hebrew scriptures or whatever other basis Jesus could have had to develop such a trust to be willing to go through the torture and death.

Hey Rrobs, Long time no see. For the record, TL;DR, however I read some of your post and find the apparent point quite intriguing. In so doing, it occurs to me that not only is or could be "idioms of permission" a truly BFD [idiom used NOT in any political sense but rather just to invoke a colloquial definition/usage] in an of itself, instead this notion/concept as you present it herein seems to dramatically illustrate the wideness of the chasm in modern day cultural interpretation and understanding of JudeoChristian scriptures and how the writers of said scriptures actually understood their words and intended messages. So, more succinctly, thanks for posting that information.

Dennett describes himself as "an autodidact—or, more properly, the beneficiary of hundreds of hours of informal tutorials on all the fields that interest me, from some of the world's leading scientists".[21] I reflect back to previous discussion and reiterate that I am not an academic... and while I'm not even close to being in the same league as Dennett, I can somewhat relate to approaching the condition of being an autodidact.

Thanks. Are you able to articulate a comparison/contrast of what you understand any of those brain scientists believe and/or promulgate(d) now as opposed to in the 1990s?

Mike, to summarize my perspective on your contributions to GSC, Regarding YOUR experience(s) and YOUR beliefs, when you make clear that's what you are saying in a comment, I don't see a need to challenge them. I may still disagree with the underlying claim(s) regarding interpretation of anything in TWI. Regarding your intellectual curiosity about other fields of study and endeavor, I (and WE here at GSC) can learn from you, whether we're ready to accept your ideas or not. Regarding your communication skills/practices. You and they still need dramatic improvement if you ever intend to promote them here and hope to see any of your ideas accepted. Regarding your "research" and your "theories" I recommend this video made recently by physicist Sabine Hossenfelder. She lists several points that you can (and should) use as guideposts or guiderails to keep yourself on track and promote a more favorable environment here for discussion and acceptance of your ideas. Peace, Dude!

Also exquisitely elegant and eloquent. And dead on salient.

Well... anyway, I had simply posed questions. I had not at all indicated a particular judgment about your intention. Sorry if my first reply was a bit harsh.

Exquisitely elegant reply. I think you've hit on something(s) Penworks that goes to the power of cults. 1) Hierarchy. Frans de Waal mentions the word repeatedly in Mama's Last Hug. Human hierarchies can be quite apparent, but we don’t always recognize them as such, and academics often act as if they don’t exist. I have sat through entire conferences on adolescent human behavior without ever hearing the words power and sex, even though to me they are what teen life is all about. De Waal, Frans . Mama's Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves (p. 31). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition. 2) As I used the expression, "commitment to the underlying Word of God" would be whether those who articulated expressions like "the Word of God is the Will of God" walked the walk instead of just talking the talk. Perhaps it's an artifact of the exponential growth of psychological and spiritual research, knowledge and understanding in the 50+ years since the rapid growth of Victor Wierwille's organization that we can identify inconsistencies so readily in our experience of the subculture itself. 3) Many of us who were drawn into The Way were primed for it by "virtue" of our childhood religious education and culture. IIRC, Penworks, you were raised in the Catholic Church. As was I, at least for me my first 13 years. It was interrupted for me when I moved with my mother and siblings to Arizona. After a less than robust couple of years religiously, at the end of high school, typical spiritual longings and curiosity began again to arise. After one semester of college, I dropped out and signed a delayed enlistment contract with the USAF. During the six month interim, a close HS friend invited me to his (Pentecostal/charismatic) church. During tech school in Mississippi, I connected with a charismatic fellowship off base. So, when I went overseas at age 19, it was natural for me to gravitate to a fellowship at the base chapel. Anyway, the two things that hooked me was, as you noted for yourself, longing for God; and the obvious need to build a social network on the small military base in a foreign land. The Way tapped ALL the right keys. It wasn't for a few years afterward that I engaged with what I now know to have been a highly corrupt (or at least dysfunctional) hierarchy.