Rocky

OFF TOPIC.:offtopic:/> I really don't give two spits what you think about me or anything I write. But you sure come off as insincere.

I don't assume anything about you. I don't intend or pretend to be anyone's savior. Haven't for a long time. Thanks for your input.

I agree. I don't know that anyone was suggesting brainwashing and choice are antithetical. As I mentioned in comment #41 in this thread, the book Brainwashing by Kathleen Taylor provides great insight. For example, Taylor cites the work of Robert Lifton who has written about Eight Criteria for Thought Reform. (and cult formation) Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989) Whether or not any particular wayfer who never had direct experience in or with anyone in the way corpse experienced TWI as a cult is something I can't speak to with any degree of authority. However, having spent a year in residence with the 9th wc, and having spent time as a wow ambassador, I can speak for my experience and give specific examples that reflect most, if not all, of the listed criteria. 1) Millieu Control. In residence WC had essentially zero access to popular culture or news. On "the WOW field" we had a small black and white television part of the time but I only remember watching an occasional sporting event. Some of which may not have been a bad thing, but during my 12 years (from ages 19-31) of twi involvement, I knew extremely little about what was going on in America. 2) Mystical manipulation WC (not just the 9th) were threatened with expulsion for lack of loyalty during training on multiple occasions. The ZERO Corpse actually had it carried out en masse. The whole thing was shut down because the entire group messed up. I have no idea whether the alleged infractions were legitimately any big deal, but I doubt it. The explanations for these threats were based on spontaneous spiritual guidance "from god." Which, of course, was total BS. 3) Demand for Purity really, is any other explanation necessary than Martindale's loyalty pledge requirement? 4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before. 5) Sacred Science MOGFODAT. The Man of God for our Day and Time. Need I say more? 6) Loading the language codes and expressions that people outside of the cult wouldn't recognize or understand without explanation (indoctrination). e.g. SIT, Renewed Mind, SOGWAP, etc. 7) Doctrine over person "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth." Wierwille, about Are the Dead Alive Now specifically taught that people's experiences are wrong and not reflective of truth. 8) Dispensing of existence Mark and Avoid; anyone who left "the Household of God" would be a grease spot by midnight. People, we were in an intentionally established cult and we were trained (by our own choice to accept the authority of Wierwille, PFLAP, the WC, Twig/Branch/Limb/Trunk leaders) to be obedient/compliant. We WERE brainwashed. The only antidote I know of at this point is development of critical thinking and emotional/social intelligence skills. This, of course, is somewhat problematic because many people grew up in families that did not know how to raise children who had critical thinking skills. And today in America, so much of Dominionism/Christian Nationalism is attacking and undermining the only other institution where kids generally have a chance to develop at least some of those skills -- public schools. More at another time. So, to Bolshevik's original question and issue on this thread, I believe that no authoritarian social system (government) declaration or law can directly prevent the formation and growth of cults. But individuals can, despite their upbringing, come to protect themselves from manipulation by others. I hope you all are or can get on a path to develop such skills.

Roy, I've known the despair you expressed. Obviously, nobody here at GSC can help you (including me). Have you gone to any church or tried to make any other friends in your community? One of the most helpful things we can have is somebody to love and accept us. That's not really possible on forums like GSC. I wish I could help you, but I don't know any way to do so, and do not personally have skills that might help you. I hope you find peace and actual human companionship. Take care, Steve

Let's also not forget that the Mormon church recently excommunicated Kate Kelly for standing up for women's rights. Btw, THE reason excommunication is used as a social discipline strategy (mark and avoid) is because a chief draw for cults and religious sects is the sense of belonging.

There would be a serious disturbance in the Force! ;)

Even if a person can't articulate the reason (lack of self-awareness perhaps), there is still a reason. For many people, for whichever group they lock onto as young adults, the reason is a sense of belonging.

True that we all see through a different lens. I would hope that an educated guy like you, George, would be able to see that your scenario/explanation is completely subjective and not at all linked to rational reasoning or logic. At minimum, because regardless of whether the biblical record is actually an accurate historical document, there's ZERO biblical declaration of the reasoning you set forth. It's just what you believe the verse you referred to implies.

you can find her on facebook under the name excathedra. :)

Most importantly, you and I didn't have the opportunity to choose our parents. So, you have no cause for shame. I didn't grow up in TWI, but as a young adult, I spent 12 years in it, including one year in residence with the 9th corpse. Many of my peers (who got out in our 30s) have had to account for a lack of professional employment background. I hope you don't have to deal with that. What you tell people is your business and you certainly can make it as succinct or elaborate as you want. In casual conversation with people, trust can be important for developing relationships. You don't have to lie but you can frame your experience however you want. Just be your authentic self. If you have to account for gaps in employment because of TWI, it's important to be truthful because if you're not, and an employer looks for justification to fire/layoff, and they find out you've been less than honest, you become an early casualty. Otherwise, work out your own salvation, as it were. If you develop your personal story in a way that motivates you to use the word "cult" that's your choice. There's really a wide range of options that all can be valid and reasonable. At this stage of my life (I'm 60), when the subject of religion comes up, I am comfortable telling people I spent time involved in a group that some considered a cult. But that also helps to explain when I make reference to scriptures in my writing. I write a blog about politics in my state and though I have little interest in any organized (or disorganized) religious group, I sometimes find a scripture passage to be pertinent. Have fun and don't be afraid. :)

Hi Garth... Penworks may not want to boast or brag or even suggest she knows better than anyone else but... She and he husband have done actual academic research (including in many places, not in the USA) that probably did an excellent job of informing her understanding of the items on that list. Yeah, I know how that can be. However, a different -- also legitimate -- usage of the word cult DOES fairly describe Rocky Horror Picture Show. Obviously, two totally different meanings.

So, I'm readinga story this evening about documentarian Alex Gibney's latest project, an in-depth expose of Scientology, and found this paragraph: "But he feels that the message of this film applies well beyond Scientology or any one organization. "You can see how abusive institutions get when they have a lot of power and money and when they become guided by a small group of people at the top, perhaps even one person," he says. And then there's a theme that resonates across any number of religions: "It's really hard-wired into all of us, the psychology of wanting to find certainty in faith that allows you to do the most reprehensible things because you believe the ends justify the means." I REALLY like the expression "prison of belief." I think it describes cults very well... including the one we (here at gsc) have in common.

And that could be why many of us just don't go to ANY church or fellowship/ministry and some have even renounced Christianity. I know that I went to a non-denominational church for a couple of years in the 1990s. I had to consciously overlook anything having to do with the trinity... Eventually, even that church, which has some wonderful people, grew tedious for me.

Indeed. But I would suggest that you'd find the book I linked to in an earlier comment to be interesting and would expand your insight on the subject.

As you suggest, we were complicit. That's indisputable. But Garth, how much study of the science of brainwashing have you done?

Because the decision would be founded on a rational analysis, rather than the sunk cost fallacy.

Excellent point. Here's a free (except for the time required to read, watch lecture videos and complete assignments) and convenient way to begin exploring how to recognize fallacies and develop critical thinking skills. MOOC on Coursera.org:Think Again -- How to Reason and Argue. I don't know what Garth may have been getting at, but Brainwashing HAS been scientifically explored. That's what's in the book, the link to which I posted in a previous comment.

Did I say "the book says you were brainwashed?" The book describes and details the science behind the phenomenon. It didn't tell me anything about me or our experience.

Brainwashing Guess what fellow former wayfers, it appears we were brainwashed.

It also was "enchantment."

Fair Use law is not as strict as the gsc policy. Basically, posting it (an article) here about narcissism could not be a copyright violation because nobody here is trying to make money off of the article and gsc does not represent competition for the source's publication.

I get your point, now, I think.... well, maybe at least a little bit. In the minds of many of the people you know or knew in or from TWI, Wierwille is simply a myth. A story around which their church revolves. And that makes sense, to me anyway. Of course, to those of use now in our 50s and 60s, many of us did know him and have direct interaction with him. To us, he's not just a myth, but also a series of memories.

You may not have been asking for any reason other than posing a rhetorical question, but it actually is spelled H Y P O C R I S Y. :)

Yes, strength of character is important. And is not a function of one's personal relationship with Jesus (or the bible).

Thanks for sharing your insight. :)