Rocky

Great quote. I -- LOVE -- being a contrarian. And I'm passionate about it. :)

The 9th and 7th corpses were in residence at the time. I don't remember VPee's words about it, but I distinctly remember Loy ranting on about it and recognizing right away that we would be labeled a cult because of Jim Jones. Of course, Loy vehemently denied we had any cultic characteristics...

My hunch is that among his concerns is the growing trend toward Dominionism in US churches. I took a brief look at his website. I don't see him emphasizing anything that would link to a fundamentalist perspective.

And quite narcissistic.

Have you seen this article? What do you think about it? A pastor's emancipation from American Christianity I used to think that it was just me, that it was my problem, my deficiency, my moral defect. It had to be. All those times when I felt like an outsider in this American Jesus thing; the ever-more frequent moments when my throat constricted and my heart raced and my stomach turned. Maybe it came in the middle of a crowded worship service or during a small group conversation. Maybe while watching the news or when scanning a blog post, or while resting in a silent, solitary moment of prayer. Maybe it was all of these times and more, when something rose up from the deepest places within me and shouted, "I can't do this anymore! I can't be part of this!" These moments once overwhelmed me with panic and filled me with guilt, but lately I am stepping mercifully clear of such things. What I've come to realize is that it certainly is me, but not in the way I used to believe. I am not losing my mind. I'm not losing my faith. I'm not failing or falling or backsliding. I have simply outgrown American Christianity. continued at the link above

The link -- in the TWI wiki page -- to the eternally blessed website is incorrect. The actual working link (at this time) is here.

Gotta have some propaganda to keep the serfs in check, even if they do have computers and a little bit of curiosity. ;)

I have to disagree with you. From the early 1970s (when I first became involved with twi), there WERE people who attempted to stand up to VPee. They were heavily attacked. They left the organization. Those who remained, in my estimation, did not realize just how messed up the entire subculture was. It took me until 1986 and obtaining a bachelor's degree in accounting for me to even begin to realize there were problems. I left with the major exodus. But as a 19-year old (when I first came in contact with the group), I didn't know better. At that time (1986), there was a handful of clergy and other leaders who took a strong stand. Belt, T Reahard, JALVIS, Pierce and R.A.D. The stand they took was life changing. They all were heavily vilified and attacked (verbally for the most part) for it. The organization closed ranks, which it was able to do by controlling the news and information available to "twig leaves" until the advent of the internet. Even then, cult tactics kept (and still do), out of fear, some people from even daring to question the culture. No, we who left and reclaimed our lives didn't fail. We succeeded. We had no responsibility to do any more than we could or have to undermine the evil that keeps people in emotional bondage.

I was talking with a friend the other day who had visited a fellowship Earl Burt*n held in Virginia recently. This friend was impressed... in a NOT good way... by how now 30 years after Wierwille died and nearly as long ago as all the offshoots started "the exodus," this fellowship meeting was run exactly the same as the stale old fellowships in the mid-1980s. The decor -- classic Wierwille worship -- included portraits of VPee on the walls and chairs arranged in rows (probably using string lines to ensure they were straight). Cornucopias for "abundant sharing." I asked this friend if it looked like there were any young (new) people there. S/he said it looked only like perhaps grown children of former wayfers. NO effing way I could sit through one of those meetings anymore without some visceral physical reaction.

Some outstanding comments. I saw this happen to me in a post-twi workplace situation I was in... I was, in that situation, involved in labor organizing. The source material provided by Waysider is poignant and brings back vivid memories to me.

I get your point... but would instead characterize it as dishonorable mention. ;)

Good one Chocky...

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Twi spends money. It helps the local economy. Business leaders have a way of overlooking the imperfections of any institution that provides any degree of economic stimulus. It is not a validation of whether or not twi spiritually abuses its followers.

He's been dead for three decades. I don't know that you can get any current observable evidence of charisma from him. That said, it's quite easy to look back and agree with you on the main point you make. In my personal interactions with him, he was overbearing and mean. Not at all charismatic. But it was clear he had established an organization that worshiped him. Were you building up to something? Perhaps to question whether he could fit the profile of a psychopath/sociopath because he wasn't charismatic? He could be charming, especially to young women... to an extent and for a time. Most of us who were in the way corpse seem to have lived to look back and wonder what we ever saw in him that would make us trust him.

Word! (btw, not "The Word.")

Then in the mid-1990s -- BAM! -- along came the internet and VPee's protegé never knew what hit him... so to speak. Have you ever wondered why the twi corporate culture evolved the way it did? NFWay would Wierwille have been able to get away with that crap for as long as he did he had the world wide web to contend with back then.

Would not know? Hmmm... "For now we see through a glass, darkly..." I Cor 13:12

VERY intriguing discussion. Thanks, Steve Lortz, for posing the question. Of course, I've questioned my faith. I've come to the conclusion (at least for now), that the Bible is primarily a creation myth that provides a way for people to meaningfully structure their lives. That doesn't mean I am atheist or even that I reject Christianity altogether. But I do believe that the force that started all of what we now know to be the universe... or the cosmos... is much bigger than what our human minds can conceive and understand. I appreciate intellectual discussions like this because -- unlike the cult from which we emerged -- nobody is taking the "I'm right, you're wrong" angle. There's just too dang much about life that we don't know... and that many of the Ancients may never even have imagined. So, thank you (again) Steve. And thank you Raf, for your thoughtful contributions... and everyone else. :)

Which organizational structure was completely bass-ackward from that depicted in the Book of Acts.

That would be the white + sign in the green circle in the lower right corner of the comment.

Brilliant!

Unlike many internet quotes, this one actually has a source citation, at the linked page. This, of course, for those willing to apply some critical analysis, goes to wierwille's claims of authority in the PLAF class...