Rocky

Hindsight usually is 20/20.

Poignant and profound. Wierwille had figured out (what his god really taught him?) how to manufacture consent at least by the early 1970s. I've watched the Bourne movies several times each (well, the ones in which Matt Damon played the role of Jason Bourne). I'll never see them the same way now. Skyrider, thank you for sharing this insight.

No need to apologize. Thanks for letting us know. Take care of yourself and your family.

How familiar does any of this interview sound?

You might be able to view them on aetv.com also. Btw, the Hulu original series "The Path" will begin airing season two on January 25th.

Put away all the books you're reading for three months and study nothing but the Power for Abundant Living materials... - VPW

No problem.

However, it IS still available to get a hold of Whiteside's book.

Asking for clarification. Do you mean... that Lawton was home to Ft. Sill, the Army's field artillery training hq (or at least it was when I was there in 1977)? OKC had the Tinker AFB. Of course, both Lawton and OKC could have had significant turnover of twig coordinators due to military reassignments.

Your story IS compelling. Many people DO reflect and examine their lives... those who do (I figure) often find it very rewarding. Stephen King's magnum opus, the novel and mini-series 11-22-63 is ALL about the notion of going back in time to change events. I LOVED the novel (all 800+ pages of it). The mini-series was wonderful too but in different ways. The bottom line is that the book was absolutely an object lesson for me in how changing course would change everything. By all means, keep sharing. Including excerpts of your 36-page deprogramming record if you're willing.

To me, it just highlights the absurdity of twi.

How delightfully cheesy! Btw, I've not given much thought to the original sin teaching... but who was Eve supposedly having a lesbian relationship with? A granddaughter?

This excerpt from the Amazon.com review is noteworthy: "Throughout I and Thou, Buber argues for an ethic that does not use other people (or books, or trees, or God), and does not consider them objects of one's own personal experience."

Sorry I messed up the formatting in the comment above.

That's the TRUTH! The fact that there were and are no boundaries... no respect for individuals... ensures that The Way International will die. It might be a painfully slow death, but it WILL die. The fact that there's no understanding of nor respect for personal boundaries undercuts the entire system. That's at the ROOT of inability to adapt when it becomes obvious that doctrines/dogmas/teachings are flawed. It's at the ROOT of the practical issues that make the organization unsustainable from generation to generation. Jesus cut to the chase when he responded to the Pharisees who asked him about the greatest commandment, in Matthew 22:36-40, Wierwille used to say that things were to be used, people were to be loved. But he absolutely did not grasp how to put that into practice, especially with the Way Corps(e). Wierwille and Martindale used people. And they did a fine job of crafting language that made it seem justified before God. But the fact that they disrespected the needs, especially the emotional and social needs of people, it was still using people. Because their practice ran counter to Jesus' teaching as to the greatest commandments, the entire "tree" was rotten.

VeePee liked celebrities... but he didn't hook enough of them to raise his public profile to near the degree that Scientology has. Hence, there's little interest in a similar broadcast video like the series Remini has been doing. But if you run across anyone with deep pockets that wants to do something big to expose fundamentalist cults, check in with Penworks. I'm sure she could get such a project off the ground (if funding were found).

You make good points, even beside spelling out the historical events. For those of us who invested years of our adult lives in twi, it's tempting to be angry about lost time. The fact of the matter is that we are the sum total of our experiences. We can make the most, even of the regrettable experiences. Thanks for making those points.

Skyrider, I'd love to hear about some of "what unfurled and what the public was never told" about the Murrah building bombing (please). Perhaps in a new thread in the open forum.

For those interested in further exploring these sociological issues, here's a website about another bible-based group dealing with those who conceal evil... People of the Lie, Malignant Narcissism: Excerpts from M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie After the Irons left the Geftakys ministry in March, 1990, we dug into George's teaching, his character and his abusive behavior. We wrote articles about it over the years, based on the facts we had at the time. But after George's excommunication from the Fullerton Assembly in January, 2003, it became evident to us that things were a lot worse than we had ever thought. The revelations of his immorality and the cover-up of David's domestic violence were shocking. George's behavior since then of complete denial and scornful impunity, and the devastation we have seen in people's lives, bring to mind parallels with The People of the Lie, a study of malignant narcissism by Dr. M. Scott Peck. In the course of his career as a psychiatrist, Dr. Peck encountered several clients whose malignant narcissism didn't quite fit the categories of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. In People of the Lie he looks in depth at the characteristics of these individuals. Although a professing Christian, Peck's purpose is not to present a biblical study of evil. Rather, he proposes evil as a diagnosis of pathology for these people. His concept of evil clarifies the nature of malignant narcissism and offers a useful paradigm for understanding George Geftakys and other abusive leaders. Here are quotations from the book, organized under the main characteristics of the people Dr. Peck calls "evil". (continued)

Not necessarily, but you would do well to take your blinders off and consider that you're not always right.

I'm curious, did any of those "meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God" include any form of renouncing who he found himself attracted to? I talk with LGBTQ people frequently. I don't presume to know better than they themselves whether they should renounce their identity or to whom they find themselves attracted. I know what projecting is. How sure are you that it applies to me in this situation? Further, nowhere in my previous comments have I supposed to know or infer anything about you other than to critically assess your words. Read those comments carefully (critical thinking and analysis) and you should be able to tell the difference. If you disagree, by all means, (in a PM, rather than derail this thread) let me know specifically where I've erred. In the meantime, as it applies to the subject of this thread, TWI (as an organization/sub-culture), wierwille and martindale (and many more) had serious deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence including but not limited to failing to recognize and/or respect personal boundaries. I'm not projecting here. I'm reflecting back on my history and experience. I can say with confidence that it took me too long after leaving TWI to learn about and begin respecting said personal boundaries. I have forgiven myself. Those problems caused relationship problems for me, some of which have since healed. I maintain that deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence in TWI are why we are here on GSC. If wierwille hadn't been such a psychological basket case, it's likely that the organization he started (if he still would have started it) would not have been quite as problematic (insane).

I respect Raf's admission. The fact is that ALL of us were conned, at least by Wierwille. Every human is subject to confidence games.

Thank you SO much for verifying my read of your inherently judgmental comment. "PC" as you use it seems to be nothing more than an excuse to label -- those who treat individuals as actual people who are worthy of dignity -- so that you can continue to justify, puff up your chest and feel righteous in judging them. That's bothersome. This might seem like a tangent and off topic, but it really illustrates quite well the underlying insanity (social mores) of the time frame that is the subject of this thread. Outside of religious dogmatism, those mores have changed. Your post seems also to validate the irritation DWBH has expressed toward other comments you've made which have been read as efforts to justify the teachings and practices of our "dear leader" VeePee and his loyal sycophant Loy C Martindale.

Okay, I tried to ignore that comment. But it bugs the hell out of me. In other words, there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance associated with the phrase, "Returned to former lifestyle." Also, who gives a crap what you've heard? In instances like this, I immediately go, in my mind, to I Corinthians 2:11: "For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Be clear TLC, you aren't what bugs me. The statement you made bugs me. First, neither you nor I are qualified to judge Craley about this or any other matter that would assume any knowledge of what goes on in his heart or mind. Second, "former lifestyle" might seem like an innocuous phrase, but it smacks of judgment. Rather than get into a doctrinal p1ssing contest, I'll just say that I believe Wierwille's understanding of homosexuality, homosexual people AND what the bottom line of what the bible has to say about the subject was incomplete. As far as we know, Craley may have decided that to his own self he must be true. It's not something we are qualified to assess, whether it be Cra1ey, Myrac1e or even RFR. We have plenty of other reasons to scorn RFR.

I understand he's on FB. He and I share 17 mutual friends.