Rocky

How did you arrive at your expertise at determining what other people's motives might be?

I'm pretty sure that's not how forums work. In fact, that sounds like bullying passive-aggressively framed as politeness. What really is the way you can choose not to be a victim? Hint: it's not to try to control other people's behavior.

Do you now? How special.

Btw, Socrates, I think Mike is correct that you restated his "C" point in different words than he used, but it's the same concept.

Are you describing contrasting economic systems... perhaps socialism vs capitalism?

That's trademark veepee self-justifying rationalization. Well, it really wasn't originated with veepee. But it's something he did frequently. Hmmm... where is there posted a rule saying that any discussion of Wierwille must be limited to the About the Way forum? "TWI" wanted? Really, Mike? Who dreamed up the motto, "Word over the World?" Wasn't it, as Socrates says, "Saint Vic?"

Take a deep breath.

Isn't that special?! <3

According to Hayes' blog he served in the both chambers of the Maine legislature.

And what exactly is your point?

Perhaps a wise strategy. Btw, I read an interesting article about Billy Graham earlier today. I'd go into it and post some of it but it and BG's ministry got into politics pretty heavily so I won't.

Recently, one author connected some dots in American history (500 years of it) showing how America became a Fantasyland for new religions and the implications thereof. “A provocative new study of America’s cultural history . . . In this absorbing, must-read polemic, Andersen exhaustively chronicles a development eating away at the very foundation of Americanism.”—Newsday A reader said this about the book, Fantasyland is, as the subtitle says, a 500-year history of the United States, recounted through a particular prism, and I find the thesis convincing and compelling. Andersen's premise is that from colonial days on, America, unlike Europe, has been shaped by people who have been divorced from reality, whether through religious fanaticism (think the Puritans) or prospects of riches (think the Roanoke colony or Jamestown settlers). And that tenacious grip on fantasy over fact has largely guided our nation's history, with new examples emerging in every era. In the aggregate, this elevation of the impossible, the absurd and the unsubstantiated, has repeatedly destroyed lives and gotten us to the sorry place we are today... Fantasyland won't sit well with people who are deeply religious, as some of the other reviews suggest. Andersen takes repeated and precise aim at mainstream religion, as well as fringe sects like Mormonism and Scientology, He traces how various extreme elements and beliefs have come to influence politics, culture and education, among others. And he doesn't cut New Agey sorts any slack, either. But for those of us who reside mainly in the reality-based community, who believe in science and empirical evidence and view religious documents like the Bible as metaphorical, not literal, it is an important and valuable analysis of how we have come to the current pass.

I had an eye doctor try one time to give me a prescription where one eye was set for reading the other eye for distance vision... he did so without my permission. I made him change it. I don't believe that method helps at all. That might be why you get headaches from reading.

Well, Billy Graham wasn't involved with TWI... and this section is for discussing TWI/Wierwille and associated topics (like the PFLAP class). Moving this discussion to the Open Forum in no way changes any of the posts already made to the thread and doesn't change any of the rules. And it doesn't ban anyone from posting to it. It's just a way to keep things organized so as to not confuse readers and posters.

You make a good point. Perhaps GSC needs a pinned post on every one of its forums that makes it clear beforehand that we have a history of problematic discussion of politics. That could help with people new to the site feeling chastened when the subject does come up. I'm not a moderator here but I was a participant in the dysfunctional conduct when we did have political discussions. I can assure you that WordWolf meant no offense or chastisement to you. A related point, in the In Memoriam forum, we keep posts to be like something people might say in a eulogy at a memorial or funeral service. But in the Open Forum, a discussion could reasonably be had to discuss the pros and cons of the ministry that Billy Graham had through the years. GSC tolerates (even welcomes) disagreement, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into name calling and other such flame war type of posts. So perhaps this thread can be moved by a moderator into the Open Forum for that purpose. Thanks GoldStar for understanding.

As far as I know (not much), you aren't in jeopardy of being banned. However, WordWolf is correct in his explanation of the history and background of why politics isn't a topic for GSC. As to Mr. Graham, I don't know how he will be judged in the hereafter, but I also don't believe speculation on the subject matters much here one way or the other.

I see it as you blaming others for "dragging us back to our former selves." Honestly, nobody can force you to hold on to your former self, or to grow for that matter. I understand that we influence each other's actions, but really nobody is responsible for your actions other than you yourself. I appreciate that you don't want anyone to blame you. But if you want to make the case more convincing, don't try to shift that responsibility to others. Reference Mistakes were made, but not by me. It's fundamental human behavior and a pervasive psychological defense mechanism.

Don't blame anyone else for your choices.

Actually T-Bone quoted Mike. Mike, Mike, Mike... spiritually mature people unlikely to be a pushover for rationalizations? I'd say you've got to be kidding, but sadly, I doubt you are. Earlier, I asked about a definition or description of spiritual maturity. No response from you (or anyone else here... likely because that's bull$hit twi jargon). For you to suggest that "maturity can be easily miscalculated," suggests you believe it is not only not twi jargon but actually an objective phenomenon. Please, by all means, explain to us how to calculate this objective phenomenon so we don't miscalculate it. Perhaps a more objective reality is that EVERY human is subject to falling for The Confidence Game. People (like us) who bought into Wierwille's ministry and pflap DID fall for the con. From the book review link, Wierwille exploited our anxieties too... about eternal life, about truth, about the need for belonging... and then some.

SMH... I have no expectations. But I do have more questions relating to twi/pflap. What is "spiritual maturity?" What does it look like to be spiritually mature? Might that be anything like emotional intelligence?

I tend to agree. Btw (not a response to waysider), I tend to think Mike is in quicksand over his head in this discussion. He can't even recognize rhetorical questions (that answer themselves). It takes me back to when I said something about his quasi-intellectual bull$hit. Mike doesn't even come close to writing as if he has a background of examining anything in detail to suggest he has analytical or research skills on par with academic practitioners.

Glad you added this comment T-Bone.