Rocky

Indeed. The general concept of humans forgiving others is not directly related to the Christian notion of redemption. I don't believe it is possible for ME to clearly spell out the differences in an online forum. I'm comfortable with the ambiguity involved in trying to understand the different situations. I'd have to apologize if someone reading/following along at home is not. I appreciate the request for clarification. All I can say at this point is I see them as very different concepts. Christian redemption is one thing. What individual humans must do to unburden themselves from emotional situations in which they hold a grudge against another human is entirely a different concept. I apologize if that doesn't satisfy any reader.

Logic is a framework for thinking and analysis, sure. I don't see it as chains on a person's ability to understand life. So yes, I contradicted something. But I tried to explain why I believe it was warranted. Was Einstein always correct in everything he believed and propounded?

Why would/could that be the case? Philosophically, the entire premise of Christianity is wrapped around the concept of redemption, isn't it? From my perspective these days, it seems early homo sapiens probably developed awareness of humanity's emotional and behavioral awkwardness and frailty. They had to come up with both an origin story or (myth) and a way to overcome the human tendency to hurt other people they cared about. Jesus wasn't the first or only person or character to meet that need. IDK, I'm just thinking "out loud" so to speak.

https://youtube.com/shorts/JPJ4sCkKtDI?si=AYguydEHmYw3R_q7

IOW, it's a social concept... like having community w/people who (roughly) share the values and beliefs. Which, IMO, is the bottom-line of what Victor Wierwille set up. His PFLAP class was a mechanism to tap what was already indoctrinated into young people, tweak it, make himself the guru, and go from there. That is, whether he knew it or not. It reaped him temporal (money, sex, and power) benefits even though he sold it as heavenly rewards. Regardless of the degree to which the 30% of Americans figure is fair or accurate, LOTS of people are coming around to seeing the folly in churchianity.

Yeah, obviously the term organized religion also belies the fact the English language doesn't have "a word" that properly captures the essence of what is meant. Hence, it's left to people's minds to play word games (which is a valid thing to do) and pose (rhetorical) questions about disorganized religion.

I certainly haven't found it, but when I was a young man, I followed a man who claimed he had the truth. Today, I embrace life's chaos as well as holding that Proverbs 2: 1-5 are my favorite scripture verses. However, I'm not interested in developing followers. THIS is my approach, not my truth. My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Poignant AND salient. And eloquent. Thanks for posting it. I'm also confident that ultimately forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving.

Maybe so. I won't go that far, but as a critique of his PFLAP class, it seems fitting.

I'm hopeful someday, humanity will be able to do this things. Go to the ant, thou sluggard. That is, if humanity survives as long as ants have on our planet.

Cancer?

America’s nonreligious are a growing, diverse phenomenon. They really don’t like organized religion Gee, I wonder why that is.

Yes and yes.

I saw a pic of the new post card. It's of the no-longer F***Mobile. One side of the card has a long view of the side of the bus. The address side has a pic of the back of the bus promoting PFLAP Today with a chyron kinda text at the bottom "Be part of the [bowel?] movement."

IOW, I disagree that my question was off topic. But I won't push it.

If you have a subscription to Netflix, you may view a new documentary about ‘The Darkness within La Luz del Mundo’ on Netflix, a Grueling Documentary About a Religious Cult That Sheltered its Leaders’ Sex Crimes The Darkness within La Luz del Mundo (now on Netflix) is the second grueling documentary in the last year about the crimes perpetrated by Mexican religious leader Naason Joaquin Garcia. This Netflix original follows 2022’s HBO three-parter Unveiled: Surviving La Luz del Mundo, both of which track the details of Garcia’s serial sexual abuse of minors, and give survivors a platform to share their harrowing experiences. So be aware: the film (a Spanish-language production from director Carlos Perez Osorio) and this review contain some difficult-to-hear, potentially upsetting testimonials, but they carry the weight and power of truth – truth that could potentially topple a morally corrupt figurehead. The Gist: “We chose him as our savior.” That’s how the followers of Aaron Joaquin Gonzalez choose to phrase their devotion to the founder of La Luz del Mundo (which translates to “The Light of the World”), a Christian primitivist church founded in Guadalajara in 1926. Curious, considering Gonzalez declared himself to be an apostle of Jesus Christ after saying he experienced a holy vision. But that’s brainwashing for you, the circular “logic” of a cult – a cult that allegedly perpetrated a vast number of sex crimes, including rape, trafficking and child pornography for nearly a century. Allegations came to light in 2019, when five Jane Does came forward to accuse current church “apostle” Naason Joaquin Garcia of abusing them. It's rated TV-MA and has in a subtitle at the beginning, translating from Spanish, The church says it has 5 million followers and 15,000 temples. Does any of this sound familiar?

And wouldn't it be intriguing to imagine HOW humankind could evolve to somehow not depend on cults behaviors to survive, as individuals or groups?

What's the standard in that lyric? The action word is "imagine," isn't it? Did he imagine? Did he try to imagine what he'd do with or without money? I appreciate the story at that link. Thanks.

Is not the topic of cults inherently related to the characteristics of and interaction of social animals (humans), groups, and that of leaders? Why would you not be interested in imagining, or exploring evolution of cults, social animals, groups, and leadership? Just asking.

Oh, okay.

Oh, okay.

Ants predate humans by hundreds of millions of years. They have evolved with ways to avoid many of the conflicts we humans still struggle with. I hope it won't take humanity that long to figure out how to solve such problems/conflicts.

Ants at Work by Deborah Gordon. 6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! 7 It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, 8 yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. Proverbs 6 ***** The basic mystery about ant colonies is that there is no management. A functioning organization with no one in charge is so UNLIKE the way humans operate as to be virtually inconceivable. There is NO central control. No insect issues commands to another or instructs it to do things a certain way. -- Deborah Gordon, Ants at Work, 1999.

Reiterating STL's gentle request regarding you again seeming to think you (might) know what's going on inside my head. In case you would like to actually know, you could start that other thread as STL so gently requested, and ask me for clarification. In which case, I would simply add that it is my understanding that it is NOT contrary to GSC rules to DISAGREE with points you make, positions you take, claims you state. If YOU feel attacked, that's something YOU might do or feel, not something I do to you.

1) Because humans are inherently social animals. 2) The older you and I get, we are indeed more comfortable and secure in our own skins. Is that because we have FOUND our "tribe?" Those with whom we most relate and from whom we receive/give the most mutual support? I think, maybe. Also, I read something a few days about about the prevalence of organisms, from individual cells to individuals, to colonies, to populations functioning more naturally together, than independently. If I can find that piece, I'll share it here. And I certainly DO agree it's something important to pay attention to.