Rocky

A critical thought. An interesting reflection, for sure. At least partly true/factual. The fact is, we ALL (even setting aside having been sucked into TWI) are subject to and have been conned.

You've never been conned? Surely you jest. Even setting aside anything TWI and our involvement therein, we've ALL been conned. It's a part of life. Not a pleasant part, but it's there anyway. Do you have any idea how contradictory your statements above are? Critical thinking isn't necessary to just listen to their teachings? That's all you do? Really? You just absorb them without a thought as to whether they are reasonable, relate to anything you've ever heard before, or could possibly be the truth? Oh, yeah, you said you might go over them to "see if what I see in the Word agrees..." But critical thinking and analysis is SO unnecessary.

Critical thinking skills are crucial for people who want to avoid the very human condition of being subject to con games. Wierwille was a con artist. Martindale, though he exercised misdirection more often by way of bullying, was still a con artist. TWI splinter groups are con games. The truth isn't hidden now for people who actually are interested in it. For those who are not, they often resort to calling critical thinking and analysis "speculation." Your analogy about "evil persons" changing and then invoking Saul of Tarsus is a logical fallacy and unrelated to the discussion on this thread. But you'd know that if you weren't actively avoiding critical analysis.

It's UNusual for a group to NOT ask. Like I said to our not so curious and surprisingly trusting (in the R&R group) taxi friend... If they don't want to build their group, that's no skin off my nose... they'll just all fade away.

1) reading YOUR words and 2) it's awfully presumptuous of you to think that your private interpretation -- no matter how "skilled" you might be in biblical research -- is "thus saith the Lord." Oh, and besides presumptuous, it also comes off as extremely arrogant. Especially when you don't even demonstrate reasonable levels of curiosity about organizational concepts and principles.

How quaint that whenever anyone challenges YOUR preconceived notions, they are speculating, but when your R&R friends make a declaration (apparently) of thus saith the Lord, you take them at their word. The issue is not whether they eventually start asking for money, but whether or not they decide to build their new splinter group. One possibility is that they could just defer to Rico, who already has a structure to facilitate collection of moo-lah for "obedience to the household of faith."

We've been through this. It's not speculation. It's decades of experience, pattern recognition and human nature. If they have no ambition other than working for the next few decades (when they're octogenarians), then they are either independently wealthy (as TLC suggested) or they're trying to gin up a new splinter group. Now your lack of curiosity seems to have retreated into denialism.

And they will... unless Rico goes too heavy on his obedience to the household bull$hit.

A suggestion probably best if it had been made privately, if at all. GSC is about 18 years old now. I trust that Pawtucket has properly evaluated his options. I'm thankful for this service he has provided. I made a meager donation, wish I could afford more.

I heard the same $hit from Wierwille in the mid-1970s. T-bone is right, it was just marketing bull$hit.

That's certainly a big part of it. Perhaps another major reason was the sense of belonging we had as a part of what the cult labeled the "household of God." For many years before and during my time in TWI, I couldn't figure out why people stayed in denominational Christian churches that had glaring major flaws. They often overlooked those flaws because of their "tribe." They had people they felt comfortable with, they felt they belonged.

It IS relevant. But we mustn't judge whether others are as able as Elizabeth S to move on and take charge of their emotional destiny. Thanks for sharing the link. I dare say that most of us who have been here at Greasespot Cafe HAVE moved on and no longer allow twi to control our lives, our moods, our interactions with others. But it's a process that takes different times for each individual. One thing Elizabeth had and has is strong family ties with tremendous emotional support. That's one of the things GSC can help with to some extent.

Because it is not IN scripture. But he did have that obsession with homosexuality. BTW, regarding Martindale's first name, see what you can learn when you ask questions? Loy sounds much more reasonable as Thomas' middle name.

Both VeePee's and Loy's versions are tied into self-justifying rationalization... and yes, both are ridiculous. Wierwille probably tied it into his rationalization that it was acceptable to prey on (not necessarily pray over) the very attractive young women that idolized him. Martindale was apparently having a very difficult time getting through to his wife about her relationship(s) even though she seems to have overlooked his.

Makes sense. Thanks. Btw, I believe your expression, "the Oikeos 'business'" is on the mark.

SSDD indeed. I should apologia to Taxidev because this might irritate him further, but it is now abundantly clear that Rico and R&R, regardless of distinctions they might want to make about each other, are very much tied in together. I listened to all of maybe 30 seconds of Rico's recording on obedience to the Household of Faith and recognized that the very first point he made was to conflate obedience to the HOF with obedience to God. "Obedience to the household or the family faith is really about obeying God." He sets up his new cult structure with the old cult dogma. Nothing more. Nothing less. Same S*it, Different Name for the cult. So, there you have it. We've wondered for a year or so what's up with these knuckleheads, and despite the protestations of Taxidev who claimed to be giving them the benefit of the doubt and watching their behavior and words, they're NO different from the group they splintered from.

Sure looks like they are involved with each other.

Just simple to find. I understand that the concepts aren't easy for many people.

How do you know that Rico is not linked at all to or with the R&R group?

LOL... I know you wouldn't pay (nor would I) but somebody is counting on someone paying.

OIKEOS' courses Haven't seen anything on their website yet about the cost to attend the courses.

IF the R&R group has established itself as the OIKEOS Christian Network, the group has indeed set its sights on being a new splinter group. I copied excerpts and pasted them in the R&R thread with commentary. They do seem intent on running classes.

So, is the R&R group the actual Oikeos Christian Network? If so, its bylaws (of the nonprofit corporation) provide answers to key questions about which you have specifically expressed no interest in learning. It is a 501 (c) 3 corporation. That means that they ARE interested in your money, whether they have said so or not so far. The preamble/corporate governance specifies three teams, a leadership team, an oversight team and a finance team. "Networking is for support and shared benefit aided by website, periodic meetings, courses, ministering visits, or any other activity deemed appropriate by the three teams." That's the last sentence of the preamble. Those activities cost money. That money will have to come from someplace. That you seem to have had no clue about the purpose of the organization, reflects a dramatic level of naivete. I'll refrain from guessing about whether or not it is accompanied by disingenuous intent. "Section. 3 Powers. The Corporation shall have the following powers: "To receive and maintain a fund or funds and personal property, and to use and apply the whole or any part of the income therefrom and the principal thereof for the purposes set forth in Article IV, Section 1, above." So, Taxi, it didn't take me much time at all to discover things that really anyone might want to know about the group, and what people contemplating involvement or association with them SHOULD probably want to know. "Section 5. Compensation. The Oversight Team with input from the Finance Team shall determine by majority vote when to begin paying salaries and the amount of the salaries for the three Officers. The Officers may begin to be salaried one at a time or all at once depending on the Corporation’s financial resources. All voting members of the Team shall serve without compensation except that they shall be allowed reasonable advancement or reimbursement of expenses incurred in the performance of their duties." "Section 2. Duties. The Finance Team shall have custody of corporate funds. They shall work with the Secretary/Treasurer to keep or require to be kept full and accurate accounts of receipts and disbursements and shall deposit or require to be deposited all corporate monies and other valuable effects in the name and to the credit of the Corporation in the depository or depositories of the Corporation and shall render an account of the transactions and of the financial condition of the Corporation to the Leadership Team upon request. The Leadership Team shall submit a proposed budget to the Finance Team semi-annually for review. The Finance Team shall review the budget to ensure the proposed expenditures promote the mission of the Corporation and approve the budget or provide revisions to the Leadership Team. If the Leadership Team in its discretion determines that monies are needed for a specific purpose outside of the budget or in addition to the semi-annual budget, the Leadership Team shall present the purpose of the monies to the Finance Team. The Finance Team shall have full discretion on the approval or disapproval of those funds." "Section 3. Reports. Each year after the annual meeting the Leadership Team shall make the Corporation’s Balance Sheet and Revenue and Expense Statement open for public review. If audited financial reports are available, then the audited balance sheet and revenue and expense statement will be used." The expression, "if audited financial reports are available," unless superceded elsewhere in the bylaws, implies that they don't expect to have audited financial reports. That very simply makes financial mischief all but certain. "Section 8. Gifts. The Leadership Team may accept on behalf of the Corporation any contribution, gift, bequest, or devise for the general purpose or for any special Purpose of the Corporation." The rest of the article on fiscal management seems sound and feasible. Article XIV. Giving "Section 1. Standard. II Corinthians 9:7: “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” "This scripture is the basis of the Corporation’s teaching on giving. Network fellowships will not collect participants’ giving to be sent directly to the Corporation. Network fellowships can instruct participants as to how to give directly to the Corporation." The end of the bylaws says that they were adopted on 8 August 2018. So, Taxi, do you see how easy that was? Just read, copy and paste (I only pasted some parts thereof).

Oh, I'll read it. And let you know what I think about it. Bottom line is that your lack of curiosity hinders your ability to find out what's really going on. That saddens me.

Since you lack curiosity about what is really going on with R&R, why should anyone take anything you say about them seriously?