Rocky

clever!

Word!

Sky, you make numerous excellent points. Including that while Wierwille was alive, he was making the policy. I see the inertia and autopilot at work when new splinters break away and rather than actually figure out new thinking (new light) on God's word and will, they just cannot break away from Wierwille in their minds... three and a half decades after he's gone.

Autopilot is something humans do without conscious thought. That's what habits are. Much of what we do every day is done without conscious thought. 1.autopilot - a cognitive state in which you act without self-awareness; "she went about her chores on automatic pilot"; "too much of the writing seems to have been done on automatic pilot"; "she talked and he dozed and my mind went on autopilot" automatic pilot unconsciousness - a state lacking normal awareness of the self or environment

Seems like a reasonable inference.

Pretty much.

I would wonder, Raymo, if you by chance might be able to show us chapter and verse what God might have said to us in the Bible about how important it is in the grand scheme of things.

Bravo!

Campbell seems to focus on the mythology of the "hero." Which, IMO, is all well and good but stories and myths that communicate life aren't always about a, or the, hero. They are about concepts, ideas, notions. Making the abstract more tangible. In terms of the topic of this thread, I would ask if we consider Adam, or Eve, heros?

Socks, Did you ever take any philosophy classes in college? "Philosophy courses are different from other college courses you may have taken. Tests in philosophy require you to explain concepts in a clear and concise manner rather than to simply regurgitate information. Philosophers do not write research papers but instead write argument papers and this too can be a daunting task for those students that are unfamiliar with it." Your ability to ponder Christian/biblical concepts/notions, think them through and explain what you think about them is probably most why I enjoy reading your posts and comments. The one I quoted above included. I don't know that I would have ever come up with anything like you did but I find it quite intriguing. I see you as a philosopher of Christianity. Hopefully, that doesn't offend you. As for me, I'm inclined to look at the Bible as (you mentioned the other day) a story or rather (in my case) a collection of stories. Stories are intrinsically crucial to humanity. But not necessarily because they may or may not be factual. Greek and Roman mythology is all about communicating important stories/concepts to people even though we understand them to not be factual. That said (about how I now view the Bible), I see great value in how you explained Mickey Mouse as analog to Adam. And how you described a new(er) understanding of sin than I had thought of maybe ever. So, again, thanks for sharing your insights.

Very much so. And every human is subject to doing so.

For anyone who might be interested. Edx, an online platform delivering MOOCs, Massive Open Online Courses, regularly sends me email listing course offerings. Both Edx and Coursera offer many (if not most or all) of their courses for free unless you'd like an official certificate for completing each course. Today I learned that the Rochester Institute of Technology, a world renowned engineering school, is offering one they call Critical Thinking and Problem Solving. The hitch is that the class is oriented to business applications rather than the Humanities. But I have to figure there'd be at least some overlap. About this course Skip About ts course In today's business environment, organizations have identified critical thinking and problem-solving as skills that are integral to an employee's--and their organization's--success. The most successful professionals can assess the environment, analyze a situation, design a solution, and ultimately win in a competitive scenario. This course, part of the Soft Skills Professional Certificate program, will demystify, discuss, and provide application techniques for critical thinking and problem-solving in a business context. Learners will draw connections to their work experience by analyzing and critiquing case studies. Best practices for problem-solving will be discussed and illustrated including how to weigh alternative solutions, incorporate feedback from stakeholders, and how and when to start over. This course may be audited free of charge. Learners also have the opportunity to earn a verified certificate of completion. Exclusive learning opportunities such as live events hosted by subject matter experts will be available for verified learners. Learning objectives include: How to perform strategic analysis and assessment How to perceive and assess a critical need and design a tailored solution How to identify key stakeholders and ensure their needs are met How to employ adaptive problem-solving How to work through obstacles collaboratively How to analyze failure to improve future performance

Welcome back, John. I hope you've been well. Did you ever get any feedback on from your comment on the R&R website? Any idea how many people go there to listen to their ramblings?

Btw, I don't watch commercial television either, but do watch YouTube, Hulu, Amazon Prime video and PBS online. I just ran into an Associated Press news story about this recently released (in France, and in French) book about an adult woman detailing her experience as a young teen (13-15 years old) having had a sexual relationship with a much older man who happens to be still alive and previously a celebrated literary star in that country. While twi excuses sexual misconduct by its clergy with adult (sometimes married) women, the interpersonal dynamics at work in the power relationships in twi weren't different from what this French author describes... at least according to what I've read in English. Here's one of the book reviews on Amazon translated into English: In 1993, Gabriel Matzneff published a book in which he recounts his adventures with young V., 13 years old when he was 50. V., this is Vanessa Springora, the very one who publishes today The Consent... The very one that, from 1986 to 1987, was Gabriel Matzneff's little victim under the complacent gaze of much of the intellectual world of the time. Bernard Pivot will shamelessly say to Matzneff during one of his shows: “You are still a kitty collector”... Here you go. Everyone knew very well that Matzneff only touched very young virgin girls or young boys aged 11 or 12... Here you go. Everyone knew he was a criminal pedo who went to Manila regularly to satisfy his little boy fantasies... Here you go. Everyone knew it, even the President of the Republic of the day... Even Vanessa Springora's own mother. Here you go. Yeah, but Gabriel Matzneff was an author, so it changed everything. Because Matzneff knew how to manipulate and seduce with words. Because he made young Vanessa believe that there was nothing wrong with the fact that a 50-year-old man had sex with a 13-year-old child. Springora uncomplacently recounts how Matzneff spotted her, seduced, isolated, submissive and ransacked her. That's the predator. Then she tells the story of how she tried to escape this grip. She tells the story of a 13-year-old girl, caught in the clutches of a most fearsome narcissistic pervert. She tells how this predator himself has carefully recounted in books published by major publishers his sexual adventures with minors... without shocking anyone, without justice interfering with them... without anyone worrying about the fate of the young victims... At my humble level, I thank Vanessa Springora for publishing this book. I thank her on behalf of all of us: the abused young girls, the hookers, the “who did not dare to speak”, the “who spoke but who were rebarred”, the “who survived”, the “who did not survive”, the “who drove away”, the “who were annihilated by a narcissistic pervert”, the “who believed” that it was all their fault ”... In short, I thank her from the bottom of my heart.

I don't know why she left NBC, but certainly the harassment has been a significant factor overall in her decision processes.

Wonderfully eloquent.

WW, you nailed it. Penworks' book, Undertow provides great insight on her experience in twi. She has made it her mission to shed light on the cult experience. She could do that only because of her 17 years in twi. I wrote this (which Penworks included at the beginning of the book), “Undertow is a gift to young people and their families who want to understand the inner workings of fundamentalist cults. Charlene Edge’s experience parallels much of my own twelve years as a follower of Victor Paul Wierwille’s ministry. Undertow sheds light on the decisions, questions, and longings that she encountered, and ultimately worked her way through. In the words of Canadian author Matshona Dhliwayo, ‘Books are kinder teachers than experience.’ May Undertow be a kinder teacher to you than Charlene’s seventeen years in The Way International were to her.” —Steve Muratore I'm now reading Call Sign Chaos: Learning to Lead by former Secretary of Defense James Mattis. He makes the same point about learning from others' mistakes (that I did when I said that about Undertow). Mattis also poignantly demonstrates numerous examples of learning the hard way, through one's own experience. He doesn't call it regrets, but does powerfully make the case that learning from others' mistakes is quicker and often less painful.

This video is NOT about the political spectrum, in either direction. The value of this Megyn Kelly moderated discussion is expanding on the dynamics of workplace power that leads to sexual harassment/abuse. I believe it also illuminates points WordWolf made in the quote I cited in this comment. Though Kelly's interview doesn't suggest Ailes drugged anyone to commit rape or obtain sexual favors. But she and the others do dramatically show how power dynamics can play out... and much of that kind of thing DID happen in twi with vpw and lcm. A key difference between what Kelly and her colleagues experienced is that what happened in twi was self-justifying rationalizations twisting bible verses and claiming it was "God's will." It probably took a long time for a woman who submitted to figure out that it wasn't necessarily in harmony with what God really intended for her... I don't think God ever told women to be thankful that they got emotionally manipulated and sexually abused as a matter of course.

I understand. There are several first hand records on this forum. I suspect there are multiple topics about which adults in twi didn't tell you the whole story... one reason likely was that they didn't get the whole story from "leadership."

Hi Memeand... Yes, that's ONE way it happened for some of them. Not necessarily the only way. Glad you got locked into your mind not to even get started messing around with married men.

Ruminate on! Or gestate or gesticulate, whatever suits your fancy. I believe you're on the right track. Christakis' book is more about how societies form without necessarily any conscious intent. And yes, Maslov's hierarchy does seem to correlate closely with the Social Suite as articulated in Blueprint. But you nailed a couple of key sociological issues we lived through in our time in Wierwille's society/subculture. Consciously or not, VPW (and every other cult leader, because in this regard twi was far from unique) established a method for giving people a sense of belonging and then controlling their behavior (to a degree) based on threat to withdraw that sense of belonging.

Interesting thing that occurred to me this evening. It seems spookily Orwellian that (or how) twi changed names of holidays and words to songs. Each instance was clearly intended to mark/enhance the image of twi as better or more correct or more right than anyone else. In that regard, it just elevated the narcissistic nature of wierwille's subculture.

I understand how twi labeled them all as pagan. But twi's interpretation of culture wasn't necessarily the most rational much of the time.

Wierwille may have heard of B.F. Skinner, but a good bit of what's in Christakis' book hadn't been figured out before Vic died. Totally agree with you that twi was largely about group dynamics and groupthink. When one realizes what kind of commune activism had taken place prior to twi, it can make one wonder how we weren't able to see it all before we got involved. Alas, I'm now old enough for Medicare and it has taken me a lifetime of reading to learn about.

FWIW, Bill Gates (THAT Bill Gates) reviewed Blueprint on Goodreads.com He closed his review with this paragraph: "I didn’t expect to finish a book about behavior feeling more hopeful, but Christakis surprised me. It’s easy to feel down reading news headlines every day about how polarized we’re becoming. Blueprint is a refreshing reminder that, when people say we’re all in this together, it’s not just a platitude—it’s evolution."