Rocky

I haven't been trying to convince anyone here about Sabbath. Perhaps you meant to be asking someone else?

You're tired of repeating the same thing over and over again? How do you think God feels about the situation?

Well, obviously you did ask. But I will simply say in response that the answer is private enough that I intend to keep it between me and God for the time being. I'm still appreciating that you're making a tremendous effort to have a fruitful discussion. Yet, the tone of your comment was troubling, at least as far as the excerpt I quote below. You may or may not believe you have a legitimate purpose for posing such to me, but it reeks of judgmental overtones. In that regard, I'm not willing to share such intimate aspects of my life with you, or anyone else publicly here on gsc.

Btw, T-Bone, I had never heard of Professor Bloom or his book before reading your recent post. Thanks very much for mentioning it.

Hazzah! Great quote. Thanks for highlighting it. Here's another Allan Bloom quote: “The failure to read good books both enfeebles the vision and strengthens our most fatal tendency -- the belief that the here and now is all there is.” ― Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind “The liberally educated person is one who is able to resist the easy and preferred answers, not because he is obstinate but because he knows others worthy of consideration.” ― Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind “The real community of man, in the midst of all the self-contradictory simulacra of community, is the community of those who seek the truth, of the potential knowers...of all men to the extent they desire to know. But in fact, this includes only a few, the true friends, as Plato was to Aristotle at the very moment they were disagreeing about the nature of the good...They were absolutely one soul as they looked at the problem. This, according to Plato, is the only real friendship, the only real common good. It is here that the contact people so desperately seek is to be found...This is the meaning of the riddle of the improbable philosopher-kings. They have a true community that is exemplary for all other communities.” ― Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind At this point, I think it's worth mentioning that it's NOT just TWI that is guilty, but all churches in America, I suspect, are prone to this malady. By the way, a current discussion taking place in the Matters of Faith/Doctrinal forum on this website conjures in my mind the last quote I listed above. It's SO easy to be dismissive of those with whom we disagree. Perhaps a lingering artifact of waybrain, but active love, wonderment at those with whom one disagrees (which I hope to make a habit) can foster that community and enlarge the lives of people on all sides of such a discussion. That is, even if no one comes to a consensus of mind. Alas, I don't find this book in the catalog at my local public library... however, it IS on Amazon.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. Thus far, I'm not persuaded regarding God requiring believers to keep a 7th day sabbath. I also believe that there is immense value in the Bible not limited to those who believe in eternal life through accepting salvation by way of Jesus Christ. There are many who accept the Bible as an important document of immense significance documenting cultural heritage. Let me pose this to you also, what do you believe the consequences may be to individuals who do not "keep the sabbath" the way you understand the sabbath to be prescribed in scripture?

Please just let him answer the questions. Waysider, to refresh your recollection: Thank you.

I guess, one of the things I need to understand is, did you really mean to say "who do want" when you first posted this phrase. And it would be very helpful if you would use punctuation in your own writing, not just when you copy/paste.

I appreciate that you anticipated the question of how to have a relationship with God. And I appreciate that you are trying to be concise. Are you saying that God doesn't love us unless we keep His Commandments, most notably keeping the 7th Day Sabbath?

I will need clarifications/responses to my other questions before I will feel comfortable responding to yours. Thank you.

Alas... there was no way to enforce any "truth in advertising" provision whether it was enshrined in any law or not. I applaud you for the acronym more fairly characterizing the situation.

I can't say what is the most common objection, but it certainly seems that IS A common reason. Gabe, I look forward to your clarifying responses.

I'm not going to defend wierwille or guess as to why he did or didn't do or say any particular thing. I'm not engaging in this for anything to either prove or disprove anything about wierwille.

Is this the foundation of the logic on which you rest your case? Other than asking God to reveal the importance of this as the most important commandment that most of us (including me) have been ignoring?

Is this the question you are asking me, whether I agree with the bible verses you are sharing and whether or not I see ambiguity or contradiction on the points you are making? Please note that I pledged to not challenge you or criticize you, but only to ask for clarification when I need to better understand the case you are trying to make. I didn't pledge to agree with you, just to do my best to understand you and the case you make.

What it looks like you are saying is that there is no logic to the argument, but rather it's only something that can be grasped/understood by faith. Is that correct?

I don't understand what you mean by these words.

I'm not challenging your intent. And foremost, this isn't about me. There is NO need to praise me in any way for this. Please just lay out your case.

Thanks, I wasn't remembering Ken's name. And yes, that would have been a good day to suspend operation of LEAD.

Aka rationalizations. I'm confident Skyrider will remember when one 7th corpse guy got struck and killed on a highway while hitchhiking during the 9th corpse's first year in residence.

Okay, here's what I am going to do... and what I'm not intending to do. First, I'm not going to do or be or say or write anything that I don't believe in the depths of my,heart. This isn't about whether I'm going to let you put me in a box in your mind. You're going to do what you're going to do. I can't and have no need to control any aspect of that. Second, I'm not going to try to prove anything to you on/in this thread. Third, I fully intend to listen to, or read, your words, Waxit, non-judgmentally. I believe I've already explained my position on the subject of the sabbath. I'm not going to try to prove you wrong. Period. I just want to understand, preferably in words from your own heart, backed up if you need/want, by scripture. But primarily I want to understand where you're coming from. Now, I'm not making this proclamation to anyone but Waxit at this time. Lay it on me. I will, to the extent I need clarification of what you say from this point on, on this subject, ASK you for clarification. I will not criticize your perspective. You have already made it emphatically clear that you believe in the importance of the 7th Day Sabbath. I accept that as your position but want to understand how and why you believe that. Thanks, Rocky THIS is my aim: Proverbs 2:1-5 Not to demand it of anyone else, but for me to do this. My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

1) That sounds like "beating around the bush." and 2) The best way for you to ensure it will be a productive discussion is for you to contribute productively -- cogently explain YOUR position. 3) We can't control what other people do (i.e. you either controlling me or deciding that you time isn't worth engaging with me because of _______ (you name it) 4) Now that would equate to you dismissing me, wouldn't it? Actually, if you want to help people clarify their understanding, the only thing YOU can do is make your argument as clear and simple as possible and then ask questions to figure out if what you tried to explain is clear to your readers.

What I'm hearing you say is that you're more concerned with describing what you think I'm thinking instead of explaining what you want me/us to understand about your perspective/understanding of the Bible regarding keeping of the Sabbath. Perhaps it would be constructive for you to try to answer the questions posed to you rather than erect walls in your mind to give yourself justification for not actually discussing the core issues you want me and other people to understand.

I could guess... but otherwise don't know anything about it.

Btw, in case you read or even just saw the thread I started in the "questioning faith" forum, I'm reading a book written by former fundamentalist Frank Schaeffer by that title, Why I am an Atheist who Believes in God. To me, it's a fascinating book that explores paradoxes of Christianity.