Rocky

I suspect that wasn't the question WW was referring to. You obviously have an agenda, which is not to reflect on the historical record Elie Wiesel set forth of his experience. Conservative? We don't do politics here, no matter how hard you try to wedge it into a thread.

Yeah, I know that, WW. I suppose I should have realized it was a stupid question for me to ask.

This wikipedia article (on the Holocaust) has 461 footnotes/citations. From roughly 100 different researchers/scholars.

Wikipedia cites its sources. Allan, WTF is your motivation on this thread?

Unrelated to the topic of this thread. Just stop.

For example (btw, 11 hours ago, skyrider quoted the above from the R and R documents, rather than just saying it), gaining an understanding of that bible verse could hypothetically be attained by a "research team" continuing the Wierwille model of parsing each word in the original languages and/or studying Orientalisms... or people studying anthropology of Middle East cultures, and sociology/psychology. But the organization would have to have established flow of knowledge/understanding/wisdom that precludes the centralized "power over" (emotional abuse) that you get in twi and spinoffs therefrom.

Salient insight into the significance of TWI as a cult. However, in order to succeed in that effort to dig a little deeper to determine which aspects of the subculture are scripture based and which were levers for power and control, IMO, would take more than understanding scripture. It will also take an understanding of and insight into social sciences and humanities, which are generally gained when people commit to post-secondary education, either in universities or extensive reading in those fields. That takes us back to the fundamentals of cultism, namely Wierwille's demand that newly indoctrinated followers only read Wierwille's books.

That many Jews heeded warning and left Germany rather than be exterminated is in NO way connected to the number who were killed. So, yes, you're missing a lot besides what Waysider cited. Your inference is totally lacking any grounding in logic.

No worries, T-Bone. I just want us to keep this thread away from political controversy... especially over current events in the US. Historical perspective about the Holocaust is very much related to the book.

Yikes! Interesting manifesto to set before Edwards. Color me totally not optimistic that there will be any change in direction, doctrine or practice in twi anytime soon.

Or perhaps, viewing the same thing a bit differently, Wiesel recognizes something that happened and wonders how and why they could not have recognized the danger and taken action either family by family or collectively.

WW, please don't engage Allan on the subject. But yes, I appreciate your effort to bring us back to discussion of the book.

Which is SO from the discussion of the book which is the subject of this thread.

This isn't related to any discussion of the book.

This isn't necessary in order to appreciate the book by Elie Weisel as a historical document.

A simple statement would have sufficed rather than a full-scale dive into spiritual speculation. That's independent of whether anyone believes anything.

Perhaps it's worth noting that NONE of us is or will be in a position to parse your question or possible answers thereto Allan. It may very well be a pertinent question for personal reflection, but I just don't see how it could foster any kind of meaningful discussion on this thread.

It also moves us very far into the realm of political discussion, which I clearly intended to avoid. Let's PLEASE not go there.

What are you planning to charge for PFAL, Gary? I just saw your Facebook page For the record, I don't subscribe to the fundamentalist perspective, including Wierwille's private interpretation thereof, anymore.

A local high school English teacher and I connected on FB a few days ago. I didn't tell her about Wierwille's obsession with a book called the Myth of the Six Million. But had I mentioned it, she would have known what I was referring to. She recommended a book to me, Night by Elie Wiesel. It's the record of a witness. Mr. Wiesel was a child when he was taken to a concentration camp with his family. This is not a discussion of politics then or now. My intent is simply to call attention to an original witness account of a significant era in 20th Century history. It is available as a pdf file for no charge at the link above. If you believe that history repeats itself, or at least rhymes, this book may interest you. After I finish reading it, I might post a synopsis here.

To a degree. I'm not so aggressive about some of it. Re item 2, deceptive and irresponsible implies awareness of the fact. Not necessarily a lot of the people who do so are themselves being deceptive or irresponsible. With roughly 7 billion humans alive right now and numerous cultures, I'd figure that there's plenty of rewriting going on already, some good, some not so good. Do you really need me to weigh in on item number 1?

It highlights the human need for stories and to define meaning to their lives.

But what does all that say about humanity in general and humans (people) in particular?

it's classically known as gaslighting. It's psychological abuse, plain and simple. A form of intimidation or psychological abuse, sometimes called Ambient Abuse where false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory, perception and quite often, their sanity. The classic example of gaslighting is to switch something around on someone that you know they're sure to notice, but then deny knowing anything about it, and to explain that they "must be imagining things" when they challenge these changes. A more psychological definition of gaslighting is "an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to, the victim - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own memory and perception. Your spouse begins telling you things that never really happened. For instance, he says that last week he told you he was going to go to the bar with his buddies this Monday night, but you never remember him telling you that.

That's the general consensus from threads here on the subject. There was one or two people who initially gave them the benefit of the doubt, but for the most part, it was viewed as pretty much ssdd as twi.