Rocky

Thank you very much, Socks, for sharing your insight. Indeed, I see the human nature of Christian pastors/teachers wanting to reach the entire world. And that's how I view it, as human nature. But your point about the intimate nature of Jesus' work is wonderful. Hopefully many more Christians will have their eyes opened up to that insight. Peace n love back at you. Selah.

You want to meet people in person who can relate to your experience? Are you in California?

Jared Byas' book (Love Matters More) seems to go directly to the heart of why Wierwille was a charlatan.

Yes, that's it. Thanks WW. Here's a related reference from Goodreads: "This is all I have known for certain, that God is love. Even if I have been mistaken on this of that point, God is nevertheless love. If I have made a mistake it will be plain enough; so I repent- and God is love. He is love, not he has love, nor, he will be love, oh no, even that future was too slow for me, he is love. Oh, how wonderful. Sometimes, perhaps my repentance does not come at once, and so there is a future. But God keeps no person waiting, he is love. Like spring-water which keeps the same temperature summer and winter- so is God's love. His love is a spring that never runs dry." And a related book, Love Matters More: How Fighting to be Right keeps us from Loving like Jesus.

The only time I ever recall hearing anything about this theologian/philosopher was on the game show Jeopardy. I found a review on Goodreads of Provocations: Spiritual writings of Kierkegaard that stirred me. Soren Kierkegaard's radical idea: what would happen if someone were to introduce Christianity to.... Christians? He doesn't actually state it as such but that is the essential thrust of the writings collected in this volume. His work is an antidote to a factory assembly line version of Christianity; a reminder that spirituality is not outwardly conforming to a certain manner of life (ritual) or inwardly acquiescing to a certain set of intellectual propositions (theology) but is instead a lived out experience (faith). "There are many people who reach their conclusions about life like schoolboys; they cheat their master by copying the answer out of a book without having worked out the sum for themselves." - Soren Kierkegaard The title for this collection was very aptly chosen. I have a friend who once shared with me that she takes a certain amount of pleasure in poking egos with a stick. I'm going to commandeer her phrase because it is such a perfect description of what this book does - it pokes the ego with a stick. “Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.” - Søren Kierkegaard Another reviewer stated it far more pithily than me: the purpose is to inform in order to transform. ***** It occurs to me (Rocky) that Wierwille was one of those people described above who cheat their master by copying the answer out of a book without having worked it out for himself... even though VPW made plenty of claims to the contrary. If you've studied any Kierkegaard writings, please share your impressions of his ideas. Thanks

One of my favorite books. My favorite word.

Still can.

I hope damage is minimal in Houston. Good luck, George.

Do you remember veepee introducing the concept in PFLAP that the label on the can may say one thing, but inside the can is something else? This IS it. Twi consciously taught abusiveness as a culture. Undershepherding developed abusers. Ultimately for me, it (I) caused my post-twi marriage to fail because of it.

Dare I say, it was Wierwille's failure of both imagination and a massive failure due to his narcissism which stunted the "auxano" growth that the dancing president talked about before he got side tracked by the sexual abuse Wierwille told him he needed to practice. That narcissism appears to have totally displaced the agape love we read about in the Bible.

I just saw this today on Amazon. In this award-winning memoir, Alexandra Amor shines a light on cults so that others might learn from her heartbreaking experience. Amor gracefully and sensitively explains how ordinary and intelligent people get seduced into joining cults, why they stay despite the emotional and psychological abuse, and what the long process of recovery looks like once someone leaves a cult. I haven't read it, but the narrative sounds intriguing.

Reaping the consequence of refusing to learn lessons of life from anything outside the tiny little box of their orthodox interpretation of Wierwille writings and practices, conspicuously labeled within the cult system as The Word of God. But many of those practices were nothing more than self-justifying sins of the flesh. And I'm not suggesting that was only limited to Wierwille's and Martindale's openly secret practice of adultery. The financial practices governing the Way's labor force was rotten too. With blinders on the Boards of Trustees, they appeared to learn nothing of consequence over the last 40-50 years except for how to screw people financially. But I digress.

YAY!

What a con job!

Very true.

SOME good advice. However, "Look Only to God?" What does that even mean anymore? Looking to God is what got many of us trapped by Wierwille's version of god and his social system. THE most important thing adults need to do (AND teach their children to do) is develop critical thinking and analysis skills. A good bit of what you listed is a part of a healthy critical approach to religion. And don't be mistaken, one of the first things cultists do is make the point that their version isn't really religion but a relationship with God. That's fundamental for establishing the walls between Wierwillism (and any other cult, because he was far from unique) and other people of faith. There are (educated) people who escaped from twi who still think that truth is something they get from god by revelation. In practice, and by definition, that makes them subject to being blown about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14) because what it boils down to is that they believe something to the effect that their first thought is from God. That was in the advanced class on PFLAP but did Wierwille ever show where it said that in scripture? I don't think so. But HE TOLD us the definitions of what he categorized as manifestations of the Holy Spirit. And for a long time, many of us believed him.

The blurb you quoted from Stayed Too Long got my attention too. From the perspective of victims of cult abuse, I'm not sure what STL said is absolute. I agree that because humans are social, and because we are all subject to being conned at some point in our lives, and because belonging is a primal need, I believe it naturally follows that having help is extremely beneficial. But some who want to extract themselves from the cult can become determined to leave without initial assistance from others. But ultimately, again because of our need to belong, we do need others in some kind of group to get involved with in order to survive for very long.

Congratulations JJ!

Even just a month and a half ago, a guy posted on the 7th corpse thread looking for PFLAP materials to run the class in other languages.

Standard rationalization by twi. Why do you not think that's what really happened?

You expect anything with them to be rational? You jest?

And yet, in some ways, it seems like just the blink of an eye. Great questions there Brother Skyrider.

That's why MLE S or other(s) directly impacted by them need to stand up, speak up and speak out.

John Lewis, recently passed away, answered that question many times. He's the subject of Jon Meacham's bio book to be released on August 25th. His Truth is Marching On.

IIRC, she's mentioned in Undertow as having worked at the NC limb also.