Belle

Now, now, y'all don't be so hard on ck, after all, Allan claims, also that vee pee and twi had a huge impact on mainstream Christianity. He's yet to provide any proof of said "claim", but he, also, claims the same things as ck and Mike in so many areas related to twi. Maybe all THREE are the same person. :unsure:

:( We have to keep our shoes on? :( I've never gotten in trouble for that before... :unsure: For putting my gum under the counter - yes, but for sitting at the counter barefoot - never.

Please let me clarify. When I hear someone say they just can't bear to "lie" to their children by telling them that there is a Santa Claus and presenting presents from him, I cringe internally. I remember all too well the rantings and yelling by craiggers that it's 'lying' to your kids and how the he11 are they going to believe anything you tell them, when they find out you've been lying to them. The scarring kids for life comment comes from those rantings. I think a way-brain switch goes off in my head when people say they don't want to "lie" to their kids about Santa. I also know some parents who use that 'lying' line but have no qualms about lying to their children about other things all the time. <_< I feel sorry for the children I know from TWI who grew up with no Santa Claus, no Christmas Carols, none of the 'magic' of traditional Christmas customs. They were expected to be little adults and, as kids, it fostered an attitude of superiority because they (the kids) weren't 'deceived' like those egg-sucking unbelievers. The devout Jewish folks I know don't/didn't have Santa in their house, but their parents raised them to see Santa as a "Christian aspect of Christmas" and the parents didn't tell their kids there was no Santa so as to not ruin it for the children who DO believe. Because of the excitement of their own celebrations, the children didn't feel as though they were missing out, either. I love reading your stories and, obviously as parents, you know what's best for your own families. :) I know it's my own brain that has 'issues' and I certainly didn't mean to offend any of you. Shaz, I see it as 'play' and a great exercise in imagination.... for the adults as well as the kids. Rummy, way back in the dark ages before there were computers, we tracked Santa on the local TV station growing up. It was also, Dooj, used to tell us when to go to bed. Love it, Abigail!! Priceless!

David, I'm sorry to give you more bad news. :( Your impression that CES is "far flung" and does not attempt to control fellowships like TWI does appears to be incorrect. I've read more than one post on that, but Galen's pretty much sums it up (excerpts posted). It sounds like a type of "loyalty letter", no? Yet one more comparison of how TWI and CES are alike, imo. I really feel for y'all who got involved with and trusted CES. It's got to feel even worse than learning of the betrayal, evil and ungodly secrets of TWI since it's the second time wolves have deceived the flock - and this was a group who were supposedly "keeping the baby but not the bathwater". Since vee pee made craiggers twice-fold the child of he11 that he was, does that make these leaders four-fold the child of he11?

He has permission from Elizabeth to post this.... Capn's Post about having permission I'm not surprised either. I don't know her, but just from this whole debacle, she seems to be a very strong woman who is not willing to allow others to get hurt or be deceived. But I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing, so I could be wrong about her and Cap'n but I do believe Paw has verified Cap'n's identity and integrity or these articles wouldn't still be at the cafe.

Sunesis, that's the kind of thing I had to endure from my husband and TWI. I couldn't read much of her letter because it reduced me to heaving sobs for her. My heart goes out to her and I can say from experience, I'm still trying to recover from my experiences and they don't even compare to hers. :( I sat next to my ex in a "meeting" with our HFC and local WC leadership getting ripped a new one while my ex sat there staring at the floor and saying nothing till he apologized TO THEM. That would have been bad enough if I didn't know that he agreed with everything I had said and done prior to being called into that meeting. I just can't imagine and words fail me.

And Sno Cones, Tom! MALPacks MUST have sno cones! Can you get Astronaut Ice Cream to make them with?

I guess I'm the dissenter here. I just LOVE the Santa Claus game and don't know any children who are scarred for life because their parents "lied" to them about Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fiary. :( It strikes me as pious, religious overkill - but I'm still bitter from my TWI days, most likely. It seems like a rite of passage of sorts for children and childhood memories. It's harmless fun, imo, and I think that, as an adult, if I hadn't been able to experience those things, I'd resent my parents for taking that fun time away from me. Kids need to be allowed to be kids - and believing in Santa, writing letters to him and such, are some of the best kid times. *shrug* I'd also be pretty darn p1ssed if someone ruined that for my kid because they don't do it at their house. edited to add: BTW, "Santa" also always put a potato and an onion in our stocking every year to remind us that we hadn't been THAT good all year. We contributed our potatoes and onions toward the makings of Christmas Dinner so that something good came out of it.

Deer Santa, I wud like a kool toy space ranjur fer Xmas. I'v ben a gud boy all yeer. Yer Friend, Billy Dear Billy, Nice spelling. You're on your way to a career in lawn care. How about I send you a book so you can learn to read and spell? I'm giving your older brother the space ranger. At least HE can spell. Santa ********************************************************************** Dear Santa, I have been a good girl all year, and the only thing I ask for is peace and joy in the world for everybody! Love, Sarah Dear Sarah, Your parents smoked pot when they had you, didn't they? Santa ************************************************************************ ** Dear Santa, I don't know if you can do this, but for Christmas, I'd like for my mommy and daddy to get back together. Please see what you can do. Love, Teddy Dear Teddy, Look, your dad's banging the babysitter like a screen door in a hurricane. Do you think he's gonna give that up to come back to your frigid mom, who rides his foot constantly? It's time to give up that dream. Let me send you some Legos instead. Santa ************************************************************************ *** Dear Santa, I left milk and cookies for you under the tree, and I left carrots for your reindeer outside the back door. Love, Susan Dear Susan, Milk gives me the dangs and carrots make the deer fart in my face when riding in the sleigh. You want to do me a favor? Leave me a bottle of Scotch. Santa *********************************************************************** Dear Santa, What do you do the other 364 days of the year? Are you busy making toys? Your friend, Thomas Dear Thomas, All the toys are made in China. I have a condo in Vegas where I spend most of my time making low-budget films. I unwind by drinking myself silly and squeezing the asses of cocktail waitresses while losing money at the craps table. Hey, you wanted to know. Santa ************************************************************************ Dear Santa, Do you see us when we're sleeping, do you really know when we're awake, like in the song? Love, Jessica Dear Jessica, Are you really that gullible? Good luck in whatever you do. I'm skipping your house. Santa ************************************************************************ Dear Santa, I really want a puppy this year. Please, please, please, PLEASE, PLEASE could I have one? Love, Timmy Dear Timmy, That whiney begging dang may work with your folks, but that crap doesn't work with me. You're getting a sweater again. Santa ************************************************************************ Dearest Santa, We don't have a chimney in our house. How do you get into our home? Love, Marky Dear Mark, First stop calling yourself "Marky", that's why you're getting your foot whipped at school. Second, you don't live in a house, you live in a low-rent apartment complex. Third, I get inside your pad just like the boogeyman does, through your bedroom window. Sweet dreams, Santa

God Bless You, OE!!! When that jewelry is claimed, I think we need to contact the national media. :) You deserve a reward for your persistence. Talk about sentimental value.... That jewelry will have quite the story to go with it.

ex10, with all due respect I'm not "taking on" anyone. I would hope that you know me well enough by now to know that I typically avoid things like that with a few exceptions and my comments were in no way intended to be an attack on Chrispy, merely an observation and comment that the defensive comments and justification for the leaders of CES sound exactly like those who defend(ed) vee pee and other leaders in TWI. I would apologize, but it would be most likely labeled as offensive and insincere, "I'm sorry that you're offended BUT I'm not sorry for what I said or for my personal observations of CES and the leadership and the impression of the comments attempting to defend them." What seems to me is that this is a replay of the reading of POP, the "fog years" and even WayDale days. Those working so hard to defend the offenders (and allowing these things to happen at the top level makes one an offender in my book) are most likely too emotionally involved to be able to see things for what they are OR they are too defensive (and scared?) to allow other viewpoints to be voiced. *shrug* This is the way I see it and have yet to see any rational, logical explanation that it's not: TWI was started (as some believe) with honorable intentions CES was started (as some believe) with honorable intentions TWI was started (as some believe) with very good teachings by someone well versed in scripture CES was started (as some believe) with very good teachings by someone well versed in scripture TWI, at some point in time, became "off the wall" in some doctrinal areas CES, has obviously become "off the wall" in some doctrinal areas TWI experienced folks pointing out these doctrinal errors, those folks were kicked out, coerced into towing the company line or simply left. CES experienced folks pointing out these doctrinal errors, those folks were kicked out, coerced into towing the company line, ignored or simply left. TWI managed to keep much of this in the closet with other skeletons that only a select few knew about. CES has managed to keep much of this in the closet with other skeletons that are now being exposed. TWI experienced a "split" after POP and there was a lot of defensive posturing on the parts of folks. Each person chose sides, usually based on personal experiences, respect (and worship?) of certain leaders and other folks involved. CES appears to have an awful lot of defensive posturing on the parts of folks and it comes down to defending certain leaders and excusing their behavior (or lack thereof). Some see TWI as a great organization, but people are imperfect, so there will be problems. Some see CES the same way. Both sets, in this case, justify all the harm, abuse and destruction because "they teach/taught the word". TWI has been proven to meddle in the private and personal affairs of others where it's none of their business. CES has been proven to meddle in the private and personal affairs of others where it's none of their business. But TWI saved my life.... Taught me the word.... There was much good in TWI... It's worth saving the ministry - don't throw away the ministry just because of a few bad leaders. (you can still here that today in and outside the walls of TWI) That seems to be what I'm hearing from CES folks. There's more comparisons that can be made long these lines, but I think this is enough to make my point that I don't have to be involved with CES to see the same pattern repeating itself. I'm not "rejoicing in iniquity", merely seeing come to pass what I feel can only be expected by people who try too hard to hold onto Way Brain. Way Brain by any other name is still Way Brain and it's still destroying lives. And there are still those who will defend the leaders who cause and/or allow this to happen... some because THEY never personally experienced tragedy at the hands of them. How is CES and what they're going through different from TWI and what TWI's gone through a few times? Cause I don't see much difference. I'm commenting on this because I despise what TWI did to people and I'm disgusted that those folks at CES apparently didn't learn the lesson and now more innocent lives have been destroyed because of the egos of those in leadership positions.

Ryan, I'm an old fart and it's way past my bedtime so I'm going to leave it to one of the research pros to pick some of the better threads on the anti-semitism of TWI. But the short answer is, "yes" to the point that they not only sell the 13th tribe and encourage folks to buy & read it, but others along those lines as well. They teach it to the point that some high school TWIts reduced a holocaust survivor to tears who was at their school as a guest speaker. They called her a liar and totally deny the holocaust ever happened. They have forced the school to cancel trips to DC, and more recently to cancel just the trip to the holocaust museum instead of the whole trip to DC. Drinking? There's a 2 drink limit unless you're "spiritual enough" (read 'in the right leadership circle'), but that's not admitted to the rank & file. We've had non-ministry functions that merely had quite a few TWIts invited where leadership forbade alcohol to be served. They call therapy "rent a buddy" - "paying people to listen to you and pretend to care for you" - so you can imagine how much worse anti-depresants are frowned upon. My ex lost a great deal of respect for me when I finally broke down and went to a psychiatrist and therapist because I literally felt like I was going insane with all the b.s. hoops they had us jumping through. They are taught first aid - pray for deliverance, second aid - have others pray for you and, as a last resort - third aid - medical help. Cancer is devil spirit possession because it's 'life of it's own' - nevermind that VPW died of cancer (they won't even admit to this and my ex to this day refuses to believe that he died of cancer). VP's son also died of cancer, but they weren't able to hide that so well. When the founder's wife's alzheimers became too much for them to handle, they kicked her out of her own home and put her in a nursing home living off medicare and not providing a penny to her care. When older people become too expensive to take care of since they don't offer medical insurance for their 'employees', they find a way to dispose of them. Time for bed. Please feel free to PM or email me if'n yer so inclined. scarlettbelle at gmail dot com. Oh yea - they also sell and promote two books against the Catholic religion - I can't recall the names right now, maybe someone else does. If not, I'll dig into my brain tomorrow for you. One of the books has been recanted by the author, but TWIts don't acknowledge that. Two Babylons is one I think.

Y, we (well, I) try to stay away from labels now that we've tossed those nametags in the fire. If'n ya wanna know something about someone, just ask. There's also a "My Story" section of the cafe and you can learn a great deal about folks by booth hopping down there. A lot of folks here have been posting since the WayDale days and others, if not that long, at least for years and, well, we just kinda know each other and all that information from posting, sharing and learning as people share tidbits of their lives and experiences when and how they want to. I understand that can possibly be frustrating for someone having their first cuppa joe, but that's how it is in real life, too, isn't it? You want to get to know someone or understand how they know and how much they know about something, you just ask, right? Same thing here. There are many levels of involvement here from TWI ordained ministers to folks who maybe only took "the class" once... all have valuable input, observations and things to share. To lend credibility to one over the other is wrong, imo. (NOT saying that's what you would be doing with that information, though) Some of those people know where the bodies are buried and it would be unwise for them to share any more than they do. Everyone has his/her own reason for being anonymous and it's just something that comes with the territory. Hopefully people can get past that and still get to know us individually and use those personal experiences to determine our character instead of relying on a nametag. Me? I posted on WayDale and here at the cafe for at least FIVE YEARS while doing everything I could to maintain secrecy of my identity. I knew that if the WayGB knew who I was that my marriage would be systematically destroyed and I wanted to keep my family in tact. BUT, alas, that was not to be. I was outed and my ex chose that group over me and his commitment to God regarding our marriage. Now that the purpose of my anonymity is non-existent and I've overcome the night terrors of them discovering my identity, I'm not quite so concerned about it. I don't and won't advertise who I am, but I don't necessarily hide it either. There is still a WAYGB and they are still very active and very concerned with destroying lives and marriages. and, sadly, many who still do have to hide their identity from TWI.

Foggie, you took the words right out of my mouth. EXCELLENT POST!!! Sorry, Chrispy, I think that you sound exactly like people who claim the same things about TWI and various and sundry TWIt leaders, but any way you slice it, God does not appear to be at the center of that organization and the leaders you revere and work so hard to defend allowed it to become what it has become. :( Birds of a feather... A little leaven.... Be ye not unequally yoked... The qualifications for a leader.... Nobody is blameless and beyond reproach when it comes to those who have chosen (not necessarily BEEN CHOSEN) to shepherd and protect God's kids. I count none of those leaders blameless. They allowed this to happen. AND, if they stood up like they should have, what would have happened? Would they have lost their paycheck and the ministry they tried to build? Was that more important to them? Seeing as how much leaven, abuse and sheer b.s. is going on at the top of the food chain, it's rather difficult to see any differences between CES and TWI other than their prophecy crap is out in a different far left field than TWI's b.s. doctrines and practices. *shrug*

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, THOMAS!! I hope it was absolutely WONDERFUL!!

I LOVE their music! Would LOVE to see them and Mannheim Steamroller in concert! I'll bet you've still got goosebumps, ex10. :) Carol of the Bells - TSO Joy to the World - MS

Here are some of those mentioned above. Sorry, Chas. I LOVE that song, but I couldn't find Bing.

BillyD, thank you for your response. :) I stand corrected and apologize. That being said, when there's this kind of hooey going on in a "godly" organization it's very easy to make the leap of logic to the thought that there's more amiss within the group than merely this prophetic council and their verbal and spiritual abuse. Especially given the fact that TWI isn't the only "non-profit" organization raping the bank account of folks in the guise of "helping others." Apparently this isn't your experience with this particular group. (I hope Oakspear doesn't take my apology as insincere - I'm merely explaining why I came to my conclusion.) Does the group provide financial statements for their members? If someone wanted to know how much money was coming in and where it was being spent, would they be able to get that information? Would they have to ask for it or is it made public as a matter of policy? I also do a lot of volunteer work for non-profits that (hopefully) don't exploit others. I see no indication that they do and certainly not all non-profits are crooked thieves. Strange Brother, thank you. I love ya, Jonny, but getting 'reproved' from you makes me giggle. Can I buy ya a sno cone? David, earlier in the thread you said that this cleared up some questions that you had. I'm curious as to whether that means there were 'red flags' with your experience with the group. (Like Tom, I'm not trying to make it personal at all, just curious given my propensity for ignoring those red flags in the past.) The "stiffy" thing, imo, is just human nature. (I also think ex is the queen of one-liners and crack up reading her posts so often.) We make associations in our brains naturally and, in many cases, it enables us to help remember things. I think stuff like that should be considered when choosing a name. Just went through that with a new subsidiary company we are starting at work. One of the exercises we went through on the committee was to consider the possible names and any negative, silly, awkward things that could come out of using that name. Sort of like one wouldn't really name their child Endora in our time. I'd hope, anyway.

Do you know why they are MAILING her info? Why not a phone call or e-mail? :blink: Do you know why they are MAILING her info? Why not a phone call or e-mail? :blink:

Ryan, here's a thread that'll make your skin crawl. Note this is credible information with lots of witnesses. This is also only ONE example of many, too many incidents like this in TWI. This kind of stuff still goes on. The same people are still in power. By ignoring things like this your girlfriend is blatantly dis-obeying the order from Jesus to be harmless as doves, yet wise as serpents. Not to mention all the other commands that they teach about regarding confronting and avoiding fellowship with darkness and folks who obviously are not leadership quality based on their own teachings on the qualifications of a leader. Driven to Suicide

Ryan, it's sooo easy to nail it on the head because 1) I lived it, 2) Others on here have lived it, 3) that's how predictable people in TWI are. It's because they aren't allowed to be themselves. They have to live the company line and the model of the TWI lifestyle makes robots out of people. It's when the robots start thinking on their own that they become trouble and heavily watched. The leadership also steps up the life micro-management. People involved with TWI are stepford believers. You will not find a "casual" TWIt like you do in 'normal' churches. It's not allowed. You have to ramp up and sell out pretty quickly or you become persona non grata. It's not allowed to just come to fellowship whenever you want to, no matter how infrquently that may be. You will eventually be pressured to "take the class" and that won't be enough because eventually they'll pressure you to take the next class and then the next class. You'll also be pressured to attend various and sundry expensive "spiritually important" events and meetings. Then there's always the Way Disciple program and the Way Corps if you really want to please God and be oh, so spiritual and much more "powerfully" spiritually, taught the "deeper things of the word" (Notice, it's called "the word" not the Bible. People in TWI very seldom use the word "Bible") TWI doctrine and legalism is a perfect example of all the mind control studies that you may have heard about. "Stockholm Syndrome", Patti Hearst, "The Stanford Prison Experiment", etc. People in TWI are no different from the Jim Jones, David Koresh, Comet Riders, etc. The only difference between the groups is that TWI hasn't passed around the kool-aid yet. The people left in TWI would drink the kool-aid. :(

I second WashingtonWeather's recommendation. :) "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a great book! There are transcripts of Rivenbarf on the stand perjuring herself in a court of law online, too. Even the most die-hard person has to admit that she's lying in her statements in that court case. Converting her or not isn't really an issue with TWI folks - it's going to be converting YOU if you decide to pursue a serious relationship with her.

Oh, Ryan, this is a life lesson no young man should have to experience. :( TWI teaches, expects and demands people to put 'the ministry' before anything else in their lives. They LIVE for TWI - not God, mind you, but 'the ministry'. She has definitely got 'the company line' down pat. Religious beliefs (regardless of the religion) frequently breaks up couples. Think about things long term and decide if the compromises you'll be expected to make are acceptable for you. My husband divorced me when I decided to no longer submit to all the legalistic demands and personal intrusions of TWI and the leadership into our lives. Yes, he chose 'the ministry' over his vow to God and to me. That was just two years ago. When I first got involved Santa was okay, but by the time I left, we couldn't play "Santa", the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, etc. because it was lying. Heck, we couldn't even say the words "Christmas", "Easter", "Valentine's Day", etc. :blink: She probably says, "Household Holiday" and "December 25th" instead of Christmas unless they've loosened things up a little. Once you're in a serious relationship you will be expected to compromise yourself even more. Has she told you that the Catholic religion has to be referred to as "Roman Catholic" not just plain "Catholic" and that they consider your religion the worst of the worst? TWI folks know more RC jokes than any other jokes. You're stupid and possessed because you pray to devil spirits and dead people instead of to God exclusively. ;) You'll be expected to allow her to miss family gatherings to attend TWI functions and classes. You'll be expected to seriously limit your time with your "unbelieving" family. And you would most likely not even be allowed to get married if you don't "take the class" and begin attending fellowship on a regular basis to include giving MINIMUM 15% of your income to TWI. Are these compromises that you really want to make? Is she really worth all that trouble? Wouldn't she just be better to have as a friend and not so much investment and denial of your true, authentic self? It sounds like you're not even really able to be yourself 100% around her because of all the tip-toeing around due to TWI. The warning that people from TWI headquarters are reading this right now, printing it out and trying to figure out who you and your girlfriend are. Does that sound like a "Godly" church to you? She will hear about this from others and she will be warned about further involvement with you because of your 'tainted' impression from talking to us 'cop outs' and "Godless" people. IF they don't talk to her directly about it - they will pretend to know nothing, but ask her continually about your relationship and they will very subtly work on getting her to cut all ties with you. I tried to get my ex to see the evil and deceptions to the root of TWI and he refused with a lot of the same arguments that you're getting. I then tried to show him all the doctrinal errors and how TWI is NOT teaching "the rightly divided word", but he refused to discuss those things and called ME deceived. You're young and a relationship with this much turmoil, work and disagreements on such a foundational and important aspect of life really isn't worth the effort or going to work out to your satisfaction, I'm afraid. Consider this a great life lesson on what Ryan wants, needs and deserves in a girlfriend, wife, dear friend. Please don't compromise Ryan for someone who would never even consider compromise from her end. You deserve and should have much more than that.

And trust RumRunner to find it!