Belle

I agree, Chas. Turning her in like you did, CW, should put her in a place where she pretty much HAS to get help. I mean, if she can't steal electricity anymore, if she can't do whatever other illegal things she was doing, if the authorities have found out that she's being abused - and she is if her husband won't pay for the proper living conditions and food for her - if she won't even go to the trouble to fill out the proper forms to get help - then he's abusing her and she's abusing herself. I mean, it costs a lot of money to get to be more than 100 lbs. overweight and to the point where one can't walk, much less keep themselves clean. Somebody is spending money on food - maybe they just need education on proper diet and that IS something programs can help with. Maybe turning her in is the best thing you could do for her. Like Chas said, shelters and hospitals know what's available to help people in that kind of situation. Heck, with your internet prowess, you can find the specifics for her - I Googled briefly and found a few really good sites with the information you asked Mo for and the Ombudsman program that Chas talked about. But, like Mo asked... I wish I knew. I've helped folks when I could and on one occasion ended up getting slapped in the face for even trying to help. *shrug* You can't help people who won't help themselves and I have very little pity for those folks. Maybe it's cruel and heartless, but I'm not going to force myself on someone who obviously would rather live in squalor than accept help and I don't see how or why the government should do it either. It's the folks who deserve, want and need the help who can't get it that I feel sorry for. I'm afraid so many dishonest people have ruined a good thing for the honest and honestly needy.

I LOVE Lewis Grizzard and Jerry Clower, but you have to appreciate Southern Humor - not to mention the fact that they are both dead and I think the books are out of print, too. I also HIGHLY Recommend The Sweet Potato Queens Big @$$ Book of Love! and the cookbook.

What about music? Does it have appropriate music to play?

Welcome, Eyesopen and all the other new diners! Bard Child, you could do a lot worse than having a friend like WordWolf. :) I've got to drop this off at the booth in the back, but will bring your cream and a menu by shortly. I tell ya, I have learned sooo much from these kinds of discussions at the Cafe. I've learned about "straw men", logical fallacies and all kinds of debate techniques in addition to learning about the actual subject being discussed. It's great to watch even when I haven't got a whit to contribute. Eyes, I think "lurker" is the word you were looking for.... and lurkers are always welcome. It's the "trolls" and "drive by posters" who are infuriating. ^_^

I hope there's a privacy wall between the pilot and the, ahhh, back of the plane. What happens if he starts to land too soon?

I'll answer yours if you answer mine.

GT, I'm not sure I want to know WHY or HOW you found this..... :unsure: They don't publish member lists, do they? I've heard there are actually quite a few charter planes available from South Florida.

:eusa_clap: AWESOME IDEA, MO!! Now, Rocky, how do we go about campaigning to have this brain child put in place? AND, how do we fix the system so that folks who do, can and are working their tails off can make ends meet without needing assistance? Krys, you made a point earlier in reference to mine that I neglected to address. I agree with you and had not thought about the points that you raised. I stand corrected. :) Sorry about that, Linda. I meant to put the "with" in bold hoping the emphasis would come out in the right place, but failed miserably.

1 John, stop picking on ex and don't speak for the rest of us. Some of "we" might want to know what she knows. Since you either missed it or ignored it, I'm reposting Krysilis' post to you from The Whole Counsel of God's Word thread:

Abi, I'm angry with you. I have an aunt that would not have made it if it hadn't been for government assistance programs.. I also get infuriated when a CEO is fired with a compensation package in the tens of millions, much less the fact that they make that much money when their employees are barely making minimum wage. Hopefully, Americans will become so fed up with it that things will have to change. I, likewise hope that you are able to get the help that you need to take care of your family. I just can not imagine how hard it must have been trying to make ends meet as a single mom and now trying to catch up and continue on. It's situations like yours and my aunt's where I would gladly give as much as I could to help. Something needs to be done, but I don't know what or how to even go about it.

John, I can see how those of you involved back in the early days and under vee pee could say that you don't see how TWI fits that list...depending on where you were and who your leaders were, of course. I didn't get involved till the early 90's, so I'll list what I think of when I see that list: 1. The members of the toxic faith system make claims about their character, abilities, or knowledge that make them "special" in some way. We were the only ones with "the truth like it hadn't been heard since the first century" - we were arrogant about it. "We've forgotten more scriptures than most people ever know." We "saved the world" or "saved the country" from impending disasters quite a few times - I think y'all in TWI I made the same claims at times. Our kids did better in school, in sports, in everything than kids belonging to the "egg sucking world" I could go on, but I think you get the idea.... 2. The leader is dictatorial and authoritarian. It's a no-brainer that craig was like this. From stories I've heard about vee pee, he was too. 3. An "us versus them" mentality. This is also a no-brainer. We didn't waste time on "rank unbelievers". 4. Toxic faith systems are punitive in nature. Any refusal to follow the rules of TWI resulted in "mark & avoid", "face melting" sessions, being utterly embarrassed and yelled at in public, having the whole group learn private things about your life that's none of their business. The debt issue being one glaring example of that. 5. Adherants are asked to give overwhelming service. Maybe you were only asked to go to a 15 minute teaching, but many of us spent hours cleaning the houses of leaders, babysitting their kids, going to those "15 minute teaching" fellowships three nights a week, attending Sunday service phone hook-ups, witnessing nights, leadership meetings, etc. etc. etc. We didn't have a free minute to ourselves once we became involved with TWI. 6. Many members in the system are physically ill, emotionally distraught, and spiritually dead. I don't know how one would document this, but I do know that, in hindsight, I was and I attribute it to the stress of trying to jump through all the hoops required of us. I recognize, now, how beaten down and depressed so many people in our area are/were. 7. Information is valid only if is comes from the top of the organization. Also a no-brainer, imo. 8. Legalism - Rules are distortions of God's intent and leave Him out of the relationship. There are threads upon threads about this. 9. Claims of being so tied into God that there is no need to be tied into people. Not sure what this means. We didn't help people physically because the just "need the Word" and we didn't admit any needs that we may have had for fear of having our "believing" attacked. We also were supposed to "get our needs met in the fellowship." 10. Labeling - The technique of labeling is used to discount a person who opposes the beliefs of the toxic religion. "egg sucking world" "empty floating by" (body & soul people) "natural man" "no better than animals" Catholic jokes out the wazoo Utter disgust with trinitarians Shall I go on? TWI perpetuated and promoted disgust, hate and utter disregard for our fellow man. I'd say it was toxic. Very toxic.

And I stand behind mine. You've got examples of what you say doesn't exist right here on this thread. ^_^

I think it really has to be looked at on a case by case basis. For example: With a 15 year old - What could be considered "consensual" for one girl could be considered "rape" for another girl, depending on the maturity level and circumstances. I think it's impossible to make blanket decisions, but some situations are obviously rape whereas others are in a more "gray" area.

O&A, I haven't read that book. Sounds like a great read. I may have to add that to my ever-increasing list of books I would like to get to. Thanks for the excerpt. Does sound like TWI to a T. It's just do darn scary that there are so many groups out there like TWI.

Then you really should get out more.

DANG!!! Got some early birds at the cafe, don't we? :B) I get what you're saying, Rocky, and I do think government waste in all areas (not just Iraq) is infuriating. BUT, that's not the topic. I'm not a big fan of government assistance programs that allow such abuse of the system. Aren't they supposed to be used to help someone "get back on their feet"? Meaning.... for a short period of time for a specific purpose? Nothing gets my goat more than someone not working for years merely because they don't have to since they are eligible to collect MY tax money! Unfortunately, the only way to catch those people is for people like us to turn them in since the government can't/won't spend the money and manpower to actually check on recipients to make sure they really do need the help and really are doing something to help themselves. That would mean bigger government and I don't like that idea either. But, even if we turn them in, what's the government going to do with that information? How could things be changed? I'd really like to see assistance of any kind limited to twice in a person's lifetime for max six months. I went on unemployment when I got laid off right before 9/11. I kept a log of all my job searching activities - places I applied with, dates/times and people I spoke with. I was told that it was necessary to keep my eligibility for unemployment (I would have anyway, but that's not the point), not one person ever asked me to prove that I was really looking for a job and actively seeking getting free from the need to draw unemployment. The system is bogged down and people who "work the system" know where the cogs are and that many times, it's cheaper, quicker and easier to just pay them than to actually take the time and do the work to prove they don't deserve the help.

Don't poke fun at us, Tom! It was scary having to think about maybe needing to protect our beautiful tropical plants from such extremely cold weather. I even think I smelled a few fireplaces going last week when it got down to 48.

My gum better still be in place!!

(((((Linda))))) Thank you for checking on us. The storms started coming through somewhere between 3 and 4am - woke me up thinking I was living through Hurricane Charlie again. I love a good thunderstorm, but this one was awful sounding when it woke me up. It alternated between ferociously scary and eerily quiet. I gave up trying to sleep around 6am and went ahead and got on up and came to work early. There were roads closed all over the place - including I-4, the Expressways and many other main roads. They've got a count of 14 dead in Lake County - one family lost both parent and one child. The child is one of a set of Triplets and another child in the family, so there are now three children missing a sibling and both parents. :( Unfortunately there are a lot of stories like that on the news today. My house and the rest of the neighborhood seemed to be okay this morning, but it was definitely a long night.

Wendy, she sounds like she's a bright young lady, especially since she has recognized that she needs to take care of her own needs before she sends any money anywhere - AND since she quit giving money to one aspect of her involvement because of her own concerns. It sounds, also, like you and your husband are planning to handle things very responsibly. There IS a fine line between being too pushy and showing that you care. The unfortunate thing about that is that it's varies with each individual. Showing her that you are concerned about the group she's getting involved with is wonderful. Tell her that you've looked them up and done some research on the groups because you want to make sure that she's entrusting her "spiritual growth" with a trustworthy and integrity-minded organization. Ask more questions than you do "telling" her what you think. Find out what she feels she's getting from these groups that she wasn't getting from her church. Ask her what she likes about the groups. Ask her what she doesn't like about the groups. This is a website that looks into detail at what PFAL teaches and compares it with what the Bible really says versus what the class says the Bible says: PFAL Review / Jerry Barrax. Jerry started out as a staunch defender of PFAL and, through his honest, objective discussions and debates with others, came to the conclusion that most of what is taught is inaccurate..... which is amazing considering how many offshoots still use those teachings as the foundational platform for their organization.... and the fact that they pride themselves on accurate Biblical research. As, WordWolf said, please feel free to PM me or anyone else you would like for more information or help. (((((Wendy))))) (those are hugs) You are a good Mama! I was raised Southern Baptist and got involved with TWI when I was in my early 20's. My parents had considered paying for an intervention with Steve Hassan to try to save me from TWI. In many ways I wish they had, but I honestly can't say how effective it would have been given my pure/true devotion (and foolish pride). I do have a few friends who's children got involved with high demand religious groups similar to TWI and these offshoots. They organized interventions (not kidnapping or deprogramming) and they were very successful in getting their children back.

Wendy, I'm so sorry! That group is not The Way International. They (the Belize BRC folks) are an "offshoot" group who uses the original teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille, the founder of TWI, but they are in no way affiliated with them. It sounds like the group running PFAL is also an offshoot since TWI does not use the PFAL class anymore. The links that cman has provided will give you a lot of information on what folks here do know and have experienced with the group. Maybe getting kicked out of one of the groups is a good thing for you and your daughter. :) Who wants to be part of a group that jumps through hoops to break the law (avoid copyright infringement) and controls what their members do? I recommend reading Steve Hassan's book: Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves In the "Recommended Reading" booth here at the cafe his book: "Combatting Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults " is recommended. I haven't read that one, but I suspect it's as good and helpful as the other one I recommended. Those books will help you with the best way to communicate and keep the bond between you and your daughter. Of course, we're always here to help in any way we can. May I offer you coffee and a danish to enjoy while you look around?

Well......DID HE???

Actually, yes, there would be a problem.... if you want to call it a problem when others engage you in a debate over what you believe. :D ANY belief is likely to be challenged here because we all believe different things. It's all good, Starbird. I didn't mean to insult you with that ... there are just so many different beliefs and schools of thought that we all challenge each other here to some degree. It either makes you more convinced or causes you to consider the validity of what you believe. Either way... it's all good. That's awesome and I hope that you continue to keep that skeptical and high level of standards for what you believe and why you believe it. :) dunno where you got that, 'cause I don't. ;) dunno where you got that, 'cause I don't. ;) Not in the "traditional" sense anyway. I believe that refusing medical solutions to saving life is evil. I believe that your stance on blood transfusions unnecessarily puts people at risk who might otherwise be saved by utilizing modern medicine and the techniques is suicide. I believe that suicide is wrong. So, yes, I believe that blood transfusions save lives... people who accept blood transfusions and die would have died anyway.... so, yes, I think it's nuts and against God's will to refuse a blood transfusion when it's available and possible to save your life. Furthermore, I don't think you can prove, using scripture, that God would expect or demand that His kids commit suicide, including by refusing blood transfusions. I think you're very passionate, Starbird, I just think you're just as duped as we were. I think you're taking a man's word for what the Bible says instead of really and truly investigating it on its own merits and against common sense. I've been there, so I do think I know why you unquestioningly support what they've taught you, but I also have hope and believe that you're posting here because deep down, you doubt their teachings. You WANT to be challenged to think about what you've been taught. You KNOW it doesn't line up with an "All loving" God that you've been taught to believe in... or for some other unknown, personal reason. :) You don't know what I believe, Darling. ;) For all you know, I could merely be playing Devil's Advocate just trying to get you to think. THAT'S not true in the least! Post anything here and it will be challenged because of the diversity of beliefs and the stellar scholars in different aspects of religion, belief systems, history and theology that are so prevalent at the Cafe. Ask Mark, our most popular Catholic. Ask Templelady, our most popular Mormon. Ask SirGuess, our most popular Mystic/Spiritualist. Ask Roy.... Ask Allen.... Ask Mike...... Ask TheInvisibleDan..... We're all challenged, Sweetheart. :) It's what this forum is for... Exchanging thoughts, beliefs and whatnot. If you don't want or don't expect to be challenged then you're in the wrong booth.

Been there ~ done that ~ got the t-shirt for "brainless defense of defenseless doctrines" That's why I've engaged Starbird where I might not normally. This is a safe place for her to practice defending what she claims to believe. There aren't any JW's here to 'turn her in' or try to figure out who she is. Defending what she's been taught in her own words and, if she would actually do some of her own research and thinking, she may come to accept that just maybe the JW's doctrine isn't perfect and that, just maybe, just maybe, they're actually - gasp! - wrong about some things. It's those people who challenged me while I was still in the thick of way-brain doctrines that have come to my remembrance at times when I began clearing the fog from my brain. As I kept questioning and defending the TWI doctrine, I kept running into roadblocks in my own ability to defend it. Eventually, I had to admit that the problem was with the doctrines I was trying to defend. A lot of folks here can discuss, debate and argue without letting emotions get too involved or heated - we're mostly willing to debate and discuss things with the mindset that we've certainly been proven wrong once already, wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. But you'll have to do a darn good job of convincing and proving that the current position is incorrect. So far, Starbird hasn't even come close, imo.

You are soooo bad, Mister MStar! Soooo bad! Wish I could have been there to watch him with you.