Belle

These are excerpts from Vince Finnegan's ministry website and a prime example of why TWI leadership, especially those who were most abusive and destroyed so many lives, should not try to continue in any kind of God-related leadership position: Sound familiar, anyone? You don't need anything but the word - the word - the word - nothing but the word (Bliss, where's your puke icon??) Still stuck on performance based religion. How many hoops do his people have to jump through? It's not Jesus Christ - it's DOING what they tell you Jesus's words say to do. Sounds like "spiritual anger" and "in your face" counseling abounds to help someone get rid of their own emotional issues, as identified and defined by Vince. I just don't even know where to start with this... it's so... so... TWI! So, it's NOT God who works within you to will and do of His good pleasure? It's the leaders in the church?? Can you say legalism, guilt and burdens? Not the "unsaved", but the "unfaithful" So... the only way to get to heaven is to follow whatever legalism Mr. Finnegan teaches we are to follow? Maybe it's just me but and my tendency to "read between the lines" of things like this, but it sounds like TWI: the oppression, the legalism, the rules, the jugdments and the lack of compassion, tenderness and mercy.

Which brings us back to "blind faith", no? I mean, even TWI said that understanding God's will was easy, yet we had to take all these classes to know what the heck it was God wanted to communicate to us?? And let's not even get into all the things God requires of us.... <_< Seems awfully complicated, convoluted and corrupt to me. I mean, I'm glad we have all these historical documents, but I don't think what's in the Bible is any more important than the Nag Hammadi scrolls and all the other ancient writings that have been found. I certainly don't think it's "God breathed" and "written by the hand of God". I'd think the God churches teach could do a better job than what we're left with. I'm inclined to play Parcheesi with George. If Gawd Almighty, creators of the heavens and earth, IS God Almighty, then why all the confusion and contention? Seems to me that it boils down to "Love God and love your neighbor." The rest is superfluous and irrelevant other than for mere historical value - which, so much of what's in the Bible can't even be verified. :huh: So where does that leave us?

I guess it depends on, specifically, which "fathers" you're talking about. Foxe's Book of Martyrs lists quite a few who did die so that people could have access to the Bible. http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/johnfoxe/index.html http://dlib.lib.ohio-state.edu/foxe/ Martyrs Mirror also gives a lot of information on folks who died for their faith. It starts with the first century. http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm I apologize if that's not what you're asking.

ROFLMAO! Me too, Abi! OMG! $145??? Dang, Dot - do they gold leaf your hair? I'm a very contientious tipper and give at least 20% most of the time - that's for everyone I tip - servers, pizza delivery, hairstylist... Skycap at the airport - $2-$5 bucks Bartender - generally about a buck a drink Places with tip jars - my change or a buck, most of the time I also give gift cards at Christmas to my mailman, the garbage men, the recycle men, my favorite convenience store clerk, the neighborhood kid who sometimes cuts my yard, etc. My Daddy used to be somewhat of a tightwad when it comes to tipping. He'd give only 10-12%, so whenever he came to visit I'd get a bunch of ones ready to very discreetly add to his tip. I'm still always prepared, but have noticed that he's gotten much better at tipping in line with "my standards".... when he's with me, anyway. If I go out on a date and notice the guy is rude and condescending to the servers and/or if he's a cheap tipper, we most likely will not be going out again.

LOL! I should have known you'd come to my rescue, WordWolf. :) Thank you. I thought the title of the thread actually had "TWI urban legends" in it, but if not, it's definitely the thread you started "Superman? Green Lantern?"

(((((Listener))))) So very many of us have written almost the exact same thing at one time or another. It's so comforting to communicate with people about things we struggle with and think about who know where we're coming from, isn't it? To learn the truth about an organization that affected us in so many ways that people outside TWI would never be able to understand. I remember when I first found WayDale how utterly shocked and appalled I was at the depths of corruption and evil I was oblivious to and had been hidden from me. It was like ice water being thrown on me to realize how duped I was and how unlike myself I had become in all my efforts to live up to and gain approval from wolves in sheep's clothing. I don't think I slept a wink the first three or four months after finding WayDale and, as it all began to sink in and the initial paralyzing fear, dread and disgust dissipated a little, I was able to start putting things together, actually think somewhat rationally about the whole situation - and it's an overwhelming one to say the least, isn't it? It does get better and it really helps to get it out - to think out loud - to challenge ideas, teachings, etc. I'm so glad you're here and you contribute just as much as you feel helped. :)

LOL! Then I'm weird too, JJ! I remember being taught that some time after getting involved with TWI. I, too, apologized to God for anything I may have done and the things I knew I'd done hoping and praying I'd be forgive and not have to experience a face melting session with God when I got there. I knew I was going to heaven, just not sure of how "warm" the reception would be. ^_^ There's a great thread somewhere here that you just reminded me of. It's all about the urban legends of TWI and vee pee - like his claim to have invented the hook shot in basketball...

But we didn't really, did we JavaJive? I mean, to the stupid egg-sucking world we were geniuses and we'd "forgotten more Word than they've ever learned", but within the walls of TWI, we were idiots. We weren't living up to the expectations of God - we weren't "taking it to the wall" every single day and walking with "all nine all the time". We didn't have the latest and greatest nametag. We just, well, we weren't "good enough". There were more and more hoops to jump through. More and more teachings to "master". That superiority was only effective around new people and people outside TWI. But, yes, it *did* feel good ..... for a while. The longer I'm out, the more ridiculous I view people as being who claim to have all the answers or to know without a doubt that "x" is the answer. I'm much more comfortable with, "This is what I think......, but I could be wrong" and "Well, I just don't know about that." There's much more peace in my life knowing that I'm doing the best I can and that I do know enough to make right decisions, to take care of myself and to enjoy life. I'm content, happy and see wonderful things in my life that I never saw or felt while involved with TWI. To paraphrase the incredible Maya Angelou.... when we know better we do better. And there's always room for learning and knowing better.

Yep, PB, people can and do change, but there are still consequences for our actions and it sounds like Larry is realizing how dire the consequences can be when someone who is supposed to be protecting God's flock does just the opposite. 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. There are a lot more verses about how God views false prophets and leaders who destroy lives. Larry has a lot to answer to God for. Good for him if he's really going about trying to change, but that doesn't mean he should be in any kind of ministry or pastoral role, especially one where people are entrusting him with their lives. It also doesn't mean we should forget where he came from and what he's capable of.

WELCOME!!! Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Yet one more example of how each person's experience could be so different and how slowly they turn up the pressure and warp our thinking. I'm glad that you and your family are back together. You're right, that's exactly what God would want. I can't imagine a loving God would want us to turn our back on our family. May I buy you your first cuppa java here?

Good story, Roy!

I can't look at it right now, Jonny, but I will. Thanks for sharing with us!

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, ROY!!! You are such a joy to to read. I know that I'm a better person for knowing you. :) Thank you for being you. I hope your birthday is very special and you know how much you are loved.

Seriously, I use www.blueletterbible.com like Polar Bear. I'd never heard of the others, but I don't do much online.

Mark, this is the site I use - it's more on my level. The Brick Testament

Judaism actually encourages debate and discussion. Check out some of Abigail's posts to see the cross section of topics and viewpoints, if you're interested. I've come to have a very high respect for Judaism in the past few years. I was raised Southern Baptist and there's that joke about the newly dead guy walking around Heaven with St. Peter and coming to a door where he was told to be real quiet because it was the Baptists and they thought they were the only ones there. :lol: BUT, I was never raised to believe that or taught that and I was very involved with the church until I graduated high school. There's the Jehovah's Witnesses that think only 144,000 out of their group are going to make it to heaven. So, they discriminate not only against other religions but also against their own people. *shrug* I attend a Methodist church occasionally and they are all-inclusive and do a lot to help folks in the community regardless of religious affiliation and they participate in organized events/charities/missions/etc. with a lot of other churches of varying religions in the area. It's pretty impressive and amazing to attend a church that really does "do good unto ALL MEN" - period - end of story - ALL without exception and expecting nothing in return.

Since TWI doesn't provide any numbers, we'll never know, will we? I think the whole thing was just Rosie's way of reminding Bob who's in charge since it's common knowledge that the two can't stand each other. But the whole thing is off topic, and I'm sorry for the derail. It will be interesting to see how many weeks out of the year they actually have any folks at Gunnison and how much it helps offset the expense and labor to maintain the place.

Well, I certainly didn't *think* you were, Rottie. Where's that darn "tone of voice" button that helps with all this cyber-communication? Nice curtsy, Shellon. Just keep any stories you may have to yourself regarding <==== thisFlorida Nutcase.

But, Sunesis, most of the Bible, not even the Gospels, are proven (or even believed) to be written by people who actually walked the earth with Jesus. :unsure:

It wasn't a bust for Rosie, though, Sky. She proved to Bobby that she's got him right where she wants him. She can make him do ANY THING she wants and on a whim she can make his life miserable with one wiggle of her little finger. He's so sold out to TWI that he'll put up with the worst conditions and humiliation just to keep that paycheck coming in. It can't be about God anymore with Bob - it's about prestige, power, position and money. He'll do anything Rosie tells him to.

Never heard of it before, Roy. Thank you. :)

It's on my "to read" list, but that's gotten really long lately. With my new exposure to the Gnostic gospels, the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, Elaine Pagels work, The History Channel's "Banned from the Bible" and other 'history lessons', I'm more and more doubtful about much of the Bible.... at least, the Bible as the inerrant, God breathed word. Thanks for the links, too, y'all. :)

Some of those were trick questions, imo. They assume that you even consider the eucharist "effective", for one thing. Or that the only reason someone would believe Jesus was not really God was because God cannot indwell corrupted matter. There were a few cases like that where I might agree with one part of a statement, but not the other part. :huh: I don't even agree with the one line description they give of the chalcedon compliant score they gave me. I expected, honestly, to see Gnosticism higher on the list for me. 'Twas a fun exercise, though. And I learned more heretical terms to add to my vocabulary. I looked up the ones I didn't know and found this site, which is a hoot. You scored as Chalcedon compliant. You are Chalcedon compliant. Congratulations, you're not a heretic. You believe that Jesus is truly God and truly man and like us in every respect, apart from sin. Officially approved in 451. Chalcedon compliant 67% Monarchianism 67% Gnosticism 33% Nestorianism 33% Monophysitism 33% Pelagianism 33% Socinianism 25%