Belle

With all honesty I did learn a great method for budgeting, but it wasn't at a TWI-t meeting. It was a mandatory "class" on how to get out of debt and budget so that we could give more money to the TWI-ts. I probably would have ended up using Quicken or something along those lines eventually, but this was a practical start for me and I appreciated the knowledge in this category even though it was not "word" related. I also learned that it was my job to keep my husband happy, if you know what I mean. ;)--> He thought this was great practical learning to be applied often. I didn't really mind, but again, I didn't really need to be taught that by TWI-ts. Would that we all had the guts to say that so many times, Oakspear! :D--> I'm laughing out loud and the thought of the whole room echoing the same sentiments every time we were forced to share those "blessings" of the teaching or the class. Can you imagine those mandatory letters we were forced to write? Dear Reverend Martinpuke, Greetings to you in the power-filled name of our living lord and savior Jesus Christ who made salvation available for all us greasespots who chose to believe the wonderful, matchless Word of God which only we know truly since the first century church. God must want to spit on us all the time! I was so amazed at your complete lack of knowledge in the Word of God and how utterly boring such bombastic drivel could be. I had a hard time staying awake during the first hour of the class, but when you started screaming and yelling about how much you and God hate homos and how they should be killed I really woke up and started paying attention. Did you know that your veins on your forehead start poking out and making you look something like a Frankensaint when that happens? Now that I know about you and your extra-curricular activities and your wife's indulgences with other women, it makes perfect sense that things like this would get your blood boiling. Thank you for giving us the perfect example of a seed BOY and clues to recognizing a wolf in sheep's clothing. You are a true example to the flock. Very sincerely, a Kool-Aid Spitter

It sounds pretty utopian to me, Galen. (And I do mean that in a very kind way.) TWI would be a different place if we all had the experiences that you did. It seems as though you were able to use the resources of TWI without all the baggage and strings that were attached to it because you weren't in the direct line of fire from the corpse who weilded the iron fist. I admire your courage in the face of the unscrupulous leaders you did encounter. Since y'all weren't bombarded by the doctrines from hq through the tapes and magazines and forced to regurgitate them over and over again, you were pretty protected from the destructive doctrines. Your story explains a lot about how you were able to escape TWI with mostly good experiences and no first hand knowledge of the true depth of treachery that most of us experienced. That's a good thing! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience.

My ex has not spoken to his family in years all because of a suggestion from leadership (and we know what that means, don't we?). It breaks my heart to think about his cousins, neices, nephews and such growing up without even knowing him. He doesn't even know if some of his older relatives are alive. He was the one who broke off communication, but he was the sheep doing the bidding of the wolves who encouraged him to do it. Galen, it seems as though you were pretty much in a utopian TWIt environment. I've read several times at your shock and awe of the horrendous treatment, lies and doctrines taught. Maybe you just weren't around enough to have been affected by it or you were perceived as being too strong to bully, but the doctrines were taught from HQ in the STS tapes, the Way Mag and by all the WC, so I don't know how you missed so much of it. I didn't get in until the late 80's, but it was certainly standard good practice to limit all communication with family who "refused the Word", it was better practice to cut off all communication with those body & soul empties.

Raf, That's the kind of learning one gets when they use a crow bar to pry it into a person's thick skull. excathedra, it's a good book if I even got the durn title right albeit mis-spelled. :P-->

excathedra, I posted earlier.... Apparently I should refrain from posting when I've been sipping the mint juleps. My fingers were too liberated, but not knowledgeable enough to spell handbook correctly and started lithping over relationships.

Raf, I agree with you wholeheartedly. If it didn't come across that way, I'm sorry.

This is all quite fascinating. I was beginning to wonder what John Schoenheit would say about the situation, so thanks, Oldies for posting what you ahve. Regardless of the circumstances, imo, he did a bold and helpful thing when he presented the paper and circulated despite the wishes of the leadership. Yes, common sense would tell someone that adultery is wrong, but we weren't always using our common sense in TWI or we wouldn't have been suckered and stuck there for so long. At least I know I wasn't. Whether Steve is right or wrong I'm not one to say, but I can't say I'm surprised by John Lynn's response. It sounds like the standard crap dished out by TWI leadership for years. He sounds just like the WC I'm familiar with and I haven't been out very long. I guess that's why I've never been interested in any of the off-shoots even though I highly respect some of the leaders and people involved, they just remind me of TWI too much. Rule 1: never admit error or take the blame for anything Rule 2: Turn the focus to the initiator Rule 3: Belittle the initiator as much as possible, condescension being the best method Rule 4: Never directly answer any question Rule 5: Always end with some syrupy sweet fake Christian jabber He appears to have learned well and continued practicing what he learned in TWI, imo. The hit and run post by Jeff is rather curious, too. I wonder if it's a good intention gone wrong or if there is something amiss and that's why Jeff nor John has responded with a simple answer to the question of the origins of the post.

A lot of what has been mentioned here. I wanted friends, unconditional love, the spiritual knowledge and power that was advertised. I did find a great husband, but he was lied to and tricked into thinking I was an ungodly, contentious woman and that he should divorce me. I could tell it broke his heart to be following the orders of the leadership, but he felt he had no other choice. I found power, but not Godly, spiritual power. Just obnoxious, controlling, OCD power over people under me and how to be submissive and roll over on my back like a dog to the big bad wolves in positions of authority. Spiritual knowledge, I got plenty of, but it was really only labels and characteristics of the bad side that I was taught. Now that I'm out, I'm in a position to learn more of the good, right, honest, Godly aspects of spiritual living and growth. I do miss my ex-husband a lot, every day even. It's sad to think he feels the same way, but just isn't strong enough to stand up to them.

Learning, I've heard it taught. The reasoning was that you didn't want to risk hurting the heart of another believer if the relationship didn't work out. This was taught to the in-residence WC for sure.

nadbooks are great because you can read them on your own time and they don't cost anything if you can borrow them from people... ;)--> Wish I had known about nadbooks before I met people running classes. :D-->

I read a book called "High Bottom Drunk" about a guy's tries to get sober before joining AA and how he felt odd going to the meetings and hated them, but kept going until he found a group he did like and people he did relate with who didn't talk about God all the time and just fit his goals and ways of thinking. I bought it off the website of the author pretty cheap and he even signed it. It's a great book.

Rachel, I hope things are going well for you. If you or nameless wants to contact me via pt, I'm more than willing to help in any way I can.

Wow, Refiner. Thanks for typing all this up. Here's a few comments from my pea brain: I think this is why so many people stay in cults after realizing that it’s not what it initially appeared to be. Pride gets in the way and it hurts to realize that we were duped, so much so that some people refuse to face the facts and simply ignore parts of their knowledge of the group so they can pretend it didn’t/doesn’t happen. We’ve seen this all too well with people, especially the leadership in TWI. It’s pretty pathetic really how quick people were to jump on the bandwagon of “it’s grace” and people who are “spiritual enough” can “handle” the choices they would have them to make, such as not standing up against the sexual perversions and abuse they were aware was going on. They allowed these men and women to take advantage of na? and vulnerable CHILDREN in the name of God! In their minds they had so rationalized the behavior that they not only seared their conscience, they led others to the same fate. “Disunity” in wayspeak is “not being like-minded”. Someone who was “not like minded” with the leaders in TWI was publicly branded as stubborn and we all know that stubbornness is like witchcraft. If someone was stubborn the leaders needed to let everyone know so that they would not be contaminated by this horrible individual. It was a good lesson for the faithful to learn and especially good for the wavering ones to see so that they would know what was going to happen to them if they decided to leave. --> Can’t says as I had any experience with this. Any late night phone calls I got involved screaming and yelling and condemnation because you reprove those you love. -->

Every time I couldn't get out of the mandatory witnessing we were always asked if that was our Bible. People would say, "Oh, yeah, you have your own Bible, right?" I'd say something about looking us up on the Internet to learn more about what we teach. :D-->

Good to read you, Refiner. I'm reading a really good book you might be interested in....The Self-Revealed Knoweldge that Liberates the Spirit: A nadbook of essential information for experiencing a conscious relathionship with the infinite and restoring soul awareness to wholeness by Roy Eugene Davis.

I only saw this confrontation in front of the household fellowship one time. The other times people just disappeared or were kicked out with no notice, no money and no help getting their things out if they happened to be living with other TWI-ts. I remember going to branch or limb meetings to hear about how stupid and ungodly people were and how they had to be M&A. They were already gone by this time and no one to stand up for them. What say ye, Mr. Linder and Mr. Platig? Are you apologizing to anyone for condoning and promoting this behavior? Have you personally apologized to anyone? What do you think while you read these things knowing that you are accountable to God for your position in this kind of degredation of God's people?

So true, Chas, so true! I was reading stuff on here for YEARS before ever posting. I got an awful lot of questions and teaching topics from here, though. They never suspected a thing. So much for that spiritual perception they are supposed to have. -->

Well, Gawd bless his heart, he's just still blind and deceived like we once were. It's pointless to waste a single word on him....A fool convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. If he is Craig then he knows full well that Veepee was having sex in that motor coach. Maybe he just still believes it wasn't wrong and everyone was "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. -->

Yes. It is taught that adultery is wrong. As promised here is part of the syllabus on this subject. There is more, but this is all I have time for today. *************** Joshua….”as for me and my house….” That’s leadership. That’s what our hearts in this ministry should be. We are going to stand and our whole household is going to stand. Colossians is written to born-again believers who choose to walk as disciplined followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and live faithfully in the household. Col 3:12-14 Put on charity – this is the love of and for God in the renewed mind in manifestation is the cohesive element, that which ties relationships together in the household. Col 3:15,16 Let the peace of God rule – umpire, what will make for Godly peace in a situation. Dwellin you richly – how will it get there if you don’t read the word and think the word? Teaching and admonishing one another – requires teaching and reminding others of what the word says. When it dwells in us richly we have the word to share with others. Col 3:17-19 Whatsover ye do in word or deed – all believers are to do this. Husbands love your wives – don’t allow yourself to keep negative thoughts and emotions in your heart and head. Those are fiery darts from the adversary and very destructive. A husband should be most kind and gentle and tender and forgiving towards his wife – forgive and forget. People will stay upset as long as they allow themselves to be upset. Col 3:18,19 (from Amplified) Col 3:20,21 Do you youngsters want to please the lord? How many things should you obey in? In ALL things. Listen, remember and obey. Col 3:21 (amplified) Col 3:22-25 Fearing – reverence Ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance – you want rewards don’t you? You have to live the standard of the word if you want any rewards. I and 2 Timothy and Titus are pastoral epistles. Everone can learn from these. 1 Tim 4:12 behavior and a set of check points for young people as they grow in this ministry 1 Tim 5:1-8 v 8 the faith – the household of faith Titus 2:1-8 The older women are to teach the younger women. The wife should lve her husband as a priority then her children. TAKING CONTROL OF EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIFE 2 Cor 4:6,7 earthen vessels – our bodies 1 Thess 4:1-7 We acquire and take control of every aspect of our life to line it up with the word including sexual aspects of life and continuing this patter through our whole life. 1 Thess 4:3 (Literal accdg to use) For this is the thing willed by God, namely, lead a life as one set apart to God, holding onesefl off from and above all sexual immorality. 1 Thess 4:3,4 (Amp Vers) Control your passions, don’t let them control you. 1 Thess 4:6,7 Go beyond – pass over the line which divides right from wrong. Exceeding proper limits Defraud – wrong or take advantage of – selfishly use (sexually or any other way) The lord is the avenger of all such – We won’t be rewarded for those actions. This is God’s justice. THE PROPER USE OF SEX God designed sex as an aspect of compaionship for a man and his wife. The contesxt for sex is the marriage relationship. Eph 4:14 The adversary tries to lead people astray according to the course of the world. The only way to beat the adversary’s system is to have a better system, and WE HAVE THE BEST SYSTEM, THE WORD OF GOD LIVING IN THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD Our decisions relating to sexual behavior will impact our lives, our physical and mental health, our walk on the Word, our service in the household, AND OUR REWARDS We know that the OT is for our learning…..lets see what it is not. Not sex with animals Lev 20:15-16 Psalms 8:4,5 – God put us in an elevated positon. Devil spirits try to trick people into degrading perversions. We aren’t living in the law and we don’t impose civil penalties, but we should know God’s opinion of sexual behavior. We should never allow ourselves to become involved in this perversion, not in our thoughts, words or deeds. Not Homosexuality Lev 20:13 Romans 1:18 Hold the truth – suppress the truth Romans 1:22, 23 An image – idols. Sexual deviations and perversions are closely linked to idolatry. Not Rape or Forced Sex 2 Sam 13:1-7 Not Plygamy/Adultery Gen 4:19, 23, 24 This is the first record in the Bible of a man having 2 wives. Lamech of Cain’s line. Somehow the adversary was able to introduce the idea of 2 wives, and it was an attack on God’s instruction of the two becoming one flesh. Polygamy was not God’s will. Culture does not define the truth. Jacob fathered 12 sons by four different women. Just because he followed the culture of the time does not mean it was God’s will. Deut 17:14-19 Kings were nto exempt from the original plan of one man and one woman becoming one flesh. Ex 20:1-3, 12-14 Honor thy father and monther Thou shalt not murder Thou shalt not commit adultery Kin david would have known this word and it applied to him and he was responsible to do the word. David broth both of these commandments. 1 Kings 11:1-12 Solomon didn’t remain true and faithful to one waife, and he didn’t stay true and faithful to one God. Solomon would have been a better man of God if he had stayed on the Word in this category of life. It is available to walk and not get caught up in adultery or other illicit sexual relations. Always avoid an unfavorable situation. Don’t be compromised. It is wise not only to avoid the compromising situation but also situations where it could look evil to others. We don’t give the adversary place. In living God’s word as a family, we should remember God designed man and his wife. The way to get our need and desire met is very clear: Therefore shal a man leave his father…..one flesh…

Point well taken ex. I didn't think of that. In fact, now that you mention it, I had been mentally keeping a list of things I wasn't supposed to do that I couldn't wait to do after getting outed and divorced from TWI. Cursing wasn't one of them, but I was in TWI II and it was expected. ;)--> And I should mention that there are subjects on the JW board that are like the doctrinal topics....way over my pea sized brain's capability.

:)--> I'm very interested in the lawsuits. So many of us weren't told anything about them and they don't mention any lawsuits any more. Nada. Never happened as far as TWI is concerned. "If you ignore them they will go away and people will forget about them" is the mentality. It's a shame people have to come to the Internet and outside sources to get information on their own group. Keep wondering, wondering one.

Oh ((((((Digger)))))) They took my best friend and life partner, too. Our loved ones are so deceived and they honestly think they are doing what God would have them to do, the only problem is that they have confused God with TWI(t) leadership. No matter what I said or do I couldn't convince my husband that I hadn't rejected God, but the false prophets and evil men and seducers of TWI. By the end of our marriage he was calling me an unbeliever. Not a day doesn't go by that I don't think about him and how much I love him and how sorry I feel for him. I know it's his choice to believe their lies and ignore what I tried to show him. He decided to cut off all communication with me and refuse to listen to what I had to say and show him, but it doesn't make him the horrible person in my eyes, it just shows how much power we can give people over our lives. He has given up so much in the name of TWI thinking it represented God. My heart aches for him, for you and for all of us with pieces of our lives destroyed by this group of wolves. I do believe that God will replace what the locusts have destroyed. I have to. Thanks for sharing your heart with us. Belle

That's sad, Goey. He's in a position to really help people, but if he can't be trusted then all he's doing is pushing people toward cults because if one thing is known to be a lie then everything else is chalked up as being lies as well.

I have registered and posted a few times on the JW site, but, as Oak said, just out of mere curiosity and it was more along the lines of Tom's posts and only about TWI teachings. I do plan to register at Raf's site, but have only had time to lurk a little so far. Like Oak, the conversation on the JW site did seem a bit juvenile and superficial for my taste. I use curse words occasionally, but only occasionally and when I'm really fired up about something. Perhaps the subjects are deeper and more substantial than they appear to me because of the amount of foul language used. I was looking forward to starting to post here and getting to know everyone, but people seem to be getting overly emotional and offended at things that really don't seem to matter in the whole scheme of things. I hope that I'm not considered anyone's enemy because of where I go and what I say. I visit quite a few other boards, but this is the only one I ever spent a lot of time on (I was lurking, but I was here).

I've called the help desk soo many times for things that have turned out to be user error that now I automatically assume I'm the one missing something. However, when it comes to personal matters and matters of the heart, it is hard to shake that Waybrained paranoia we were taught so well. Thanks for the clarification, Paw!