Belle

AMEN, SISTAH! That should go in the gems thread! Do you mind if I copy it over there? :)-->

Sky & Radar, I, too, remember that teaching. We were to give anything and everything above our NEED to TWI. To many of us that meant, no cable TV, no nice brand new car savings - just enough savings to buy another piece of sh1t, no private school for the kids - public school is just fine, no brand new clothes - Starvation Army is much more economical.... Live like paupers and give everything you can to TWI. He11 they aren't any better than Benny Hinn when it comes to their teachings on giving!

KEWL! I'm a careful reader!!! :D--> I do believe in the spiritual realm, I just don't know exactly what I believe about it at this point.

HEY! They were just following How@rd @llen's advice, weren't they?? ;)-->

Zixar, I am soooo sorry!! It IS emotionally and physically exhausting. Drains everything out of you. It's never easy. Please feel free to e-mail me if you need to vent or talk with someone who's been through it recently.

Shellon, yes it is and I suppose he knows who I am now. :D--> The WAYGB aren't the only ones who can keep records, e-mails and whatnot for years.

I'm not so sure about that, Oak. :o--> GAWD! I can't believe I'm about to disagree with YOU! I think we're all different and we were all susceptible to different levels of influence and manipulation. I do think that some people could be genuinely, clinically considered brainwashed whereas others were just plain stupid. (I think I'm in the stupid category, fyi) How someone would determine which is which, I have no clue and obviously the "deprogramming" attempts as they were carried out in the past were terribly wrong. I do know of a few "interventions" that have been successfully carried out with college kids getting involved with cults other than TWI. The family and a trained professional, like Steve Hassan, and perhaps some former upper ups sat down with the kid (with HIS permission) and discussed the cult, beliefs, the family, the "authentic self" of the kid, etc. and helped the kid see what was going on in a bigger picture sort of way. Not deprogramming but something that grew from deprogramming. Again, we're all different and this technique works with some but not with others. I honestly don't know if it would have worked with me when I was getting sucked in. *shrug*

Yes, Chris Jordan / Napkinlady's research paper on debt is phenomenal. It's very well put together and follows all of the TWIt research keys. Rico Spaghetti tried to dismantle this teaching in his tape to the wc that was never shared outside the corps household in our area. I have notes on it. I'll have to see if I can find them.

:o-->

Lianne, I'm reading "The Power of Now" right now!! It is an awesome book, Schwaigers! I also highly recommend, if you haven't already read it, Steve Hassan's "Freedom of Mind: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" It talks about our "authentic self" and how it's compromised in cults and how to get back in touch with our "authentic self", as well as drawing that out of people we are able to be in contact with who are still trapped in a cult. I also happen to like Tom Strange's signature "I'd rather have something to regret than nothing to remember" and think of it at times when I'm tempted to not do something because it's new, scary or so very different than something I would have done in TWI. Extremely sage advice here, too, I think. I realize that it's not necessarily the making the decisions that's a problem, but rather the thought processes leading UP to the decision. Is it possible for you to leave the Bible and God completely out of your decision making process for a while? Not turning your back on God, but making decisions based solely on common sense or "gut feeling" (for lack of a better term). I think if you could do that, you would find that your decisions DO line up with God's will and that you are much more capable of making right decisions and taking care of yourself and your family than you give yourself credit for. I was told and treated as if I was incredibly stupid, ignorant and lazy while I was married and in TWI. I was not trusted to make major decisions and was chastised anytime I did or said something my ex or leadership disagreed with. I began to believe them and when I got out and divorced I went through a very rough time. I second guessed myself a lot --- A LOT!! I probably wore my parents out asking their advice and not feeling very confident in my ability to make intelligent choices. They helped me heal immensely by beginning to ask me what I thought the right decision would be and other probing questions. Then they would tell me if they agree with my decision or not (which 99.9% of the time they did agree with me). Eventually I began to trust myself and now I can see that I do know what's best for me and I do a pretty darn good job of taking care of Belle. (Her house isn't always clean and she sometimes makes bad decisions, but they are hers and never nearly as bad as TWI made her feel that they were.)

I never heard of them till I got here. The most I ever heard about the early years of TWI was from Mrs. W's book and then a video from the 70's or early 80's on the bus trip we took to hq a couple of years ago.

WW, that ....ed me off when I FIRST heard it! I just got more and more angry when I would hear TWIts use the fact that the almighty mog spoke excathedra (forgive me ex, for taking your name in vain) on this topic and if he said it, then, by golly, that's the way it is....the rest of us just weren't spiritually mature enough to see it. Oak, I shared the same things with my ex and our branch coordinators and was quickly dismissed and shut up for having the wrong "motive of heart". I was just trying to find something wrong with what TWI was teaching and I was too stupid to come up with this stuff on my own. Nevermind the fact that I was right! Don't know why I was surprised or even still miffed about it. They always changed the subject back to my motive of heart or the fact that I could not have possibly come up with the things I did on my own. Signed, Belle-igerant One

WB, I think they look disgusting! I can't imagine shooting poison into my body just to acquire characteristics that someone else says makes a woman beautiful. Personally, my body is already too high maintenance! LOL! I sure as heck don't want to add any more required tune-ups to it. If my body was a car, I never would have bought it.....

Thanks, Chas! You wouldn't happen to know how one goes about donating their body to science, would you?

AMEN Long Gone! I am really going to try and control my rant impulse on this. I've been through an extremely similar situation. I am saddened by the fact that Terri's dignity - the reason she didn't want to live like that in the first place -was totally compromised by her parents. Do you really think that Terri would have wanted the whole world to see her in that state on all the major media outlets? I'm saddened that the parents had to demonize the husband in front of the whole world, just because they didn't get their way. I'm saddened and sickened at all the scumbag politician's who decided to get on the Terri bandwago just because they felt it would get them good press. Frankly, I'm saddened that both sides had to be subjected to Jessie Jackson's BS. When will we get rid of this freakin' carpetbagger?

Hi TaylorCompany, Welcome to the GSpot! I can't remember now who wrote this, but it's very sage advice: I highly recommend getting Steve Hassan's book on Freedom from Bondage: Helping People Think for Themselves.....or something along those lines. It is VERY helpful in how to speak to people "in" a cult to help remind them of who they were before they got involved and how to talk to their "authentic self". It's got good advice on the kinds of questions to ask and how to ask them, etc. It was invaluable to me and now my therapist has it. :D-->

Well, they put faithfully abundant sharing - not tithing, but abundant sharing - as a requirement for many of their classes and all the programs they have. I have tapes of craiggers screaming his head off about people not giving and having bad things happen to them. It's emotional and spiritual blackmail, imo. Toad, thanks for sharing what you know and I'd love to know more. I do think what he is suing about is a very specific incident and not necessarily the entire time he was in. I'm not one for supporting evil people, but in this case he seems to be the lesser of the two evils and I'd love to see him take the TWIts for a bundle.

Xena, I don't remember the scripture references, but your question brings to mind the verses that say that every good gift is from above, God has not given us the power of fear...; if a son asks his father for bread he wouldn't give him a stone; my yoke is easy; all things are lawful to me; we are no longer under the law; the fruit of the spirit. Remember, Jesus did say that divorced were granted because of the hardness of our hearts. That means that someone in the marriage has a hard heart - It's not necessarily the one asking for the divorce. I think God's will is for us to be at peace and to be able to spend time giving Him the love and praise that He deserves. We can't do that if we're beaten down, oppressed and being abused. Like Bob said, if Abigail lived in our culture and our times, she would most likely have divorced. And, if you still believe in TWI's administrations, if she lived in the Grace administration she probably would have divorced. Remember, too, that we don't know anything about Paul's wife (at least I don't) for all we know he could have been divorced... I can't say what God's will is in individual situations, but I can imagine that it IS His will for His kids to be happy and peaceful and if a marriage does not provide that and can not be repaired, then divorce is the only way to resolve it.

Do shaved, tattooed cats get to go trolling for treasures? I'm with you on the mind pictures, Cindy! It's painful just reading about what you guys have to contend with.

Remember that you are only seeing one side of the story thanks to the biased media. The woman was brain dead, there was absolutely no electronic activity going on in her brain and there was absolutely no way she was going to recover save a miracle. As Moony mentioned the video was years old and selectively edited to show what the parents wanted people to see. Literally hundreds of doctors examined her and all of them agreed that she was brain dead and would be nothing more than a vegetable her whole life. That's not how I would want to live. I also would not want my family paying ungodly medical bills and living in denial for years that I would some day go back to who they once knew. I realize we all have our own opinions. My familiy has been in the position of having to decide on life support and, thankfully, we're all in agreement that when it's our time to go, it's our time to go and none of us want to be kept alive by man's machinery when it's obviously our time to die. I'm terribly sorry for her family and I know they have a lot of healing to do, but I also pray they will find peace.

Oooohhhhhh! Flat Stanley is getting ever closer to coming to visit me! I can hardly wait!! :D-->

Telescope? I have a dog who says they make excellent chew toys....especially if Mom takes too long while we're in there.

Dear RockNhardPlace My recommendations under these conditions is to stay with your spouse and family even if they are still gung ho. Just bide your time. Ultimately, the hypocrisy of twi2 and the bot will do more to convince your spouse and family that it is time to leave than you will... Then when they suggest it, that's the time to concur and make plans to LEAVE ON YOUR TERMS. I married my spouse, not twi. Although I did not realize enough at the time to express my heart in those exact words, looking back on the end of our tenure in twi2, those words characterized my actions completely. During those many months, I was beginning to realize that things were very wrong, but she was still gung ho. It was a confusing, heart wrenching and unstable time. With every new threat that came from headquarters, my heart had been tugging at my mind a little bit more whispering, "this does not fit with the heart of the Word we were taught". I guess that began when we both were ashamed to bring in new people to fellowship or headquarters because of the out-of-control, incongrouos behavior of lcm. But that was only the beginning. lcm gradually amassed more control as the local twigs became less self-governing. His threats grew in number and in volume. Soon she was threataining to leave me because she did not see me getting rid of the "weakness" in my life quickly enough. I was trying, but we all know habits die hard. But I was not an evil person, like I was being treated. She never said it, but I could tell that she was going through a tug of war too. She would threaten me, echoing the threats of lcm. She would shout that she was going to leave me. We got in more and more arguments as twi2 strayed further and further from what had originally attracted both of us to the ministry. But then soon afterward she would be back to her loving self. That told me that she too was being torn. Because of that I tried to ignore the tirades. I tried to still be tender to her. Nothing is worth leaving your spouse over if there is a spark of that old fire left. It may be fanned, stoked and rekindled if you just don't quit. Why did I keep trying? Beacuse I loved her. I promised God I would do so under every condition. Soon conditions got much worse when we were kicked out of the corps. But the circumstances of that were so false that even she, as committed as she was, could see through it. Then the efforts of the local henchmen became more strident and overt. Soon they were actually trying to split us up. They would pit her against me. They even got her to tell on me when I misstepped or when the pressure got so great that I had to blow off steam. I tried to do what they said because I loved God and I loved my wife, but the more I tried to follow their recommendations the less success I had. But I would never let go. There were many tension filled moments where I could have just turned my back and walked away or said that one cutting thing that would douse the remaining sparks. But I would not do it because I loved her more than I loved twi2. Their demands that the ministry was the Word and the Word was the ministry, did not fit with my knowledge that God was the Word and the Word was God. The ministry was acting more like the devil than like God. Therefore, I could not love the "ministry" as much as I loved God or I loved my wife. After we were kicked out it got worse before it got better. There once was a point where I did not care if all my Biblical contributions just died with me... But I wasn't there too long. Once I was out from under all the intimidation, fear motivation and devil spirit influence, I was able to get my head back together and began to fit the Word back together to the point where I could put into words how wrong they were. The first step was realizing that all the "whosoevers" in the Word still applied to me, no matter how loudly lcm had shouted to the contrary. But she was going downhill. She had bought in to lcm's lies and threats so deeply that she was severly condemning herself and expecting the tragedies that lcm and the local henchmen predicted. She would not be consoled. I feared for her health and safety. All I could do was watch over her carefully and be tender with her. I, at the time was putting together in my mind what later became Research Geek's Top Ten list on this forum and I was seeing more and more how wrong lcm had been. But I could not tell her all of it. It was too painful for her to hear. So I did not force it, I only told her stuff when she asked and she made me prove it to her with scripture. I had to tell her more than once on each point and ultimately she was asking questions that sent me back to the Word and I would come back with more answers. But it was not until she got involved with Waydale that her spiritual abilities were rekindled. I can now say that our relationship has fully recovered and gone beyond where it was before. We are falling in love with each other all over again and this time we will never again let anyone or anything come between us or our family. Just love her unconditionally, be patient, and stick with it. The contrast of your love with the lack of it and the evils of twi2 will be unmistakeable. Re: love never faileth RockNHard -- I was exactly where you are until August. I wanted to get out of TWI in 1995 - right after I took the Advanced Class! (how ironic!). I came home and started telling my husband what an awful time I had, how religious TWI had become, how the Corps were like the Gestapo, anything to try to get him to see that this was NOT my "Father's" ministry anymore. He asked me to give it time. He was sure it would get better -- just wait. It took 5 years for him to see it wasn't getting better. So, for 5 years I considered myself a "Stepford" believer. A fake. Not to God and His Word - but to the TWI organization. I smiled, said "bless you!", went to branch meetings, fellowships, Limb functions. The only thing I told my husband was that I would NEVER go away from home and my kids for ANY TWI class or event again. And I managed to stick it out. About 2 years ago I discovered Trancenet - the forerunner to this site. It was not monitored and got pretty nasty at times, but I was able to hook up with old friends, and meet new ones who allowed me to vent my frustration with TWI's doings without much criticism. Then Waydale came along and it was my safe haven. I posted anonymously, told only those I knew and trusted who I was and what my situation was. Their support and love was amazing. Their prayers were appreciated more than they'll ever know. And finally - after 5 years of waiting - it happened.... My hubby finally spoke up about the travesty that TWI had become and tried to help. Of course, he was blind-sided. We were put on probation (see the Waydale Main page for my husband's letter to RFR) until "after the lawsuit". And from way things look - we won't be going back! So my advice is: Hold on. God will honor your prayers and reward your faithfulness to his Word. It won't be long. In the meantime - I will continue to pray for you both and your situation. Hang in there... Hope R.

These are some very, very old WayDale threads that I saved when I was having problems with my marriage. I'm hoping they help those with whom I've been communicating. ;)--> It's about 15 pages in Word, so I'm just going to post a bit at a time. But, in the meanwhile, please, feel free to talk amongst yerselves. :)--> ************* Re: When one spouse wants to stay Rocknhard - there, you see, you did it - took a step. Naturally there's room for many forms and types of advice here. I know there have been other posters in the last 6 months who have tried to deal with this situation as well. Perhaps when you can, or if our faithful fellow cybercitizens can for you, look in the archives. Try using the search function...I bet there's some archivist here who might be able to help. Also I urge you to check out the sites that Sunlight referred to in her post. You may need more than Bible verses, not meaning to cast aspersions here at all, to help you through this. Not being devoted to all that others might think the Bible says, I would not be able to subject myself to my spouse's beliefs and/or "memberships" in something just because they were my spouse, however I know if there are children involved this makes a huge difference. Is your spouse aware of the abuses of power that have been perpetrated upon members of TWI? Does your spouse think all things negative are merely "snares"? Keep posting and keep reading everything you can get your hands on. Godspeed. Re: When one spouse wants to stay Actually, I think I'd go at this from a different angle. Let your spouse decide for himself/herself (sorry, I don't know your gender) how to express his/her spirituality. You act on your own behalf. You say you've been pretending to be a gung-ho believer. Maybe take a step back. Instead of going to fellowship one night, mention to your spouse you'd rather stay home and read a book. Test the waters a little. I know each marriage has its own stress points. Like Ryebred, though, I can't imagine pretending allegience to something just because its something my spouse enjoys. I think I like Orange Cat's suggestion, too. Laugh, if you can. Re: When one spouse wants to stay Nice and reasonable idea and concept, problem is, TWI 2 won't allow it, they don't have the first clue what is reasonable or logical. Not go to twig??? Better be in the hospital or the morgue. That's about the only way you can not go w/o mega grief. TWI won't tolerate any form of non-compliance in any way (no matter how minor), or you will find yourself out and M&A so fast it will make your head swim. Divorce would more than likely quickly follow. I speak from experience. The oppression is so bad and so extreme, the smallest thing ends up cataclysmic and life ruining. Give the leadership the smallest hint of anything and they are on you like a blood hound. That is the reason extreme care and caution (and great wisdom) has to be exercised in this type of situation, or the result will not at all be what is wanted. No way will TWI 2 allow a spouse to exercise the freedom to pursue God in any way they don't prescribe. From an ethical point of view is it proper to pretend to be something you're not? No. But, this isn't a reasonable situation. If you're in a snake pit, the object is to get out alive. My husband woke up several months before I did. He dealt with me in the manner I described above. It was effective. He let me go at my own pace. He didn't try to think for me. He didn't push or shove. Had he handled me any differently, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt we would have gotten divorced. Had that happened, we would not be experiencing the joy, peace, and friendship that we now have (that we never had while in). It would have been a needless and tremendous loss. I am thankful every day we had enough sense to stay together and didn't let TWI or it's doctrines rip us apart. I am thankful he was patient and cared enough for me and our marriage to choose a wise course that didn't force me to choose between him and TWI. Sunlight Thanks for the reminder, Sunlight. It's still difficult for me to comprehend the level of control The Way now exercises in people's lives. However, in your last paragraph where you said that your husband didn't try to think for you, but let you move at your own pace, is exactly what I was trying to say, only you said it so much better. Peace, Laleo Re: When one spouse wants to stay Dear Rock... Please remember our chat from a few nights ago.. please feel free to e mail us by clicking on the name above left. YOU CAN ask us anything and we (meaning spousie and I) will answer any questions we can for you. We recommend that you look at the book "the subtle power of spiritual abuse". It will give you ALOT of insight as to what has gone on here. VERY HELPFUL. Above all... stay sweet with your spousie! It goes along way toward keeping the lines of communications clear and flowing. OTW2K Re: When one spouse wants to stay This is Sunlight’s spouse, she has asked me to post on this thread. I think she may have given me too much credit, we were in a very difficult situation and our leadership had continued to do things to drive us apart. My approach was to revert back to what my non-Christian dad had taught me. That is to treat people right, don’t condemn or accuse them. I think that is when my thinking started to clear up, I loved my wife and didn’t try to force anything down her throat. I was willing to accept her no matter what, because I understood that her heart was right (no matter how much crap she was taught) and it was worth it to me to fight for our marriage. We were both patient with each other and as time went on were finally able to see the great qualities we each had to offer. This may not work for everyone, but it worked for us. Sunlight's husband P.S. From Mrs. Sunlight, Laleo, you're wonderful. Pardon the wayspeak, but that's still the best compliment I can give. love never faileth

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